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Manning Found Not Guilty Of 'Aiding The Enemy


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#16    DieChecker

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:48 PM

This sounds like what Manning deserved. He obviously did not seek to hand over information to enemy, but he did steal files, and did conduct espionage. So, I feel that he got the verdicts the evidence supported.

He's both a hero and a villan. He stole and gave away documents he had no idea what they were, and yet he did expose several military war crimes. But, I don't think his positive acts MUST counter his negative acts. I think that he must serve his time. If you rob a bank to pay your kids cancer bills, you still robbed a bank.

http://www.news.com....0-1226688441205

Quote

Manning's sentencing hearing is set to begin Wednesday. Despite being cleared on the most serious charge, Manning faces up to 128 years in prison for his breaches of the espionage act.

The pictures of Julian Assange in this link make it seem he's looking around for snipers...
http://www.news.com....0-1226688441205


http://www.news.com....0-1226658755452

Quote

Who is Bradley Manning and why should you care?


Edited by DieChecker, 30 July 2013 - 09:51 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#17    Kowalski

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 30 July 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

This sounds like what Manning deserved. He obviously did not seek to hand over information to enemy, but he did steal files, and did conduct espionage. So, I feel that he got the verdicts the evidence supported.

He's both a hero and a villan. He stole and gave away documents he had no idea what they were, and yet he did expose several military war crimes. But, I don't think his positive acts MUST counter his negative acts. I think that he must serve his time. If you rob a bank to pay your kids cancer bills, you still robbed a bank.


I can certainly see your point, but my question is why is Manning on trial, and the corrupt pieces of filth who perpetrated the crimes he exposed not?

Great links by the way! :)


#18    ciriuslea

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:03 PM

Didn't the US review the cables after the leak and found they didn't pose any extra threats to troops or national security ?
Manning was trained in intel analysis, and the fact that he was found not guilty of the more serious charge IMO confirms that, and after the US review found them operationally harmless other than highlighting possible war crimes, he knew what he was giving over and his intentions.

I would hope a clause can be included into any military confidentiality agreement that covers war crimes..highly unlikely but one can hope.


#19    Kowalski

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

I agree with this man's take on the Bradley Manning trial verdict:

Quote

David Rieff, author, editor, Crimes of War 2.0: What the Public Should Know

The guilty verdict was a foregone conclusion.
The US government's fury at the release of hundreds of thousands of classified diplomatic cables and other materials cannot be overstated.
The government has been unable to get its hands on Wikileaks' founder, Julian Assange, who is clearly right not to leave the Ecuadorean embassy in London. Therefore Manning would have to do.

Of course the most important single piece of classified data Manning released was a cockpit video of two US airstrikes, one in Baghdad in 2007 and the other in Afghanistan in 2009.
The footage seemed to show soldiers in flagrant violation of the laws of armed conflict.
Unlike Manning, members of the aircrew were never charged, just as most US service personnel convicted of war crimes have received sentences far lighter than Manning's.
There is no doubt Manning committed criminal offences.

But the verdict is emblematic of Barack Obama, the president who has succeeded at what Bill Clinton failed do: make the Democratic Party the standard bearer of the national security state.

In this way, the crime of revealing possible war crimes in defiance of official secrecy is deemed by the government to be espionage, punishable by up to 130 years in prison, and thus infinitely worse than committing them.


Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-23511145

Edited by Kowalski, 30 July 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#20    Thanato

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:47 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 30 July 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

Didn't the US review the cables after the leak and found they didn't pose any extra threats to troops or national security ?
Manning was trained in intel analysis, and the fact that he was found not guilty of the more serious charge IMO confirms that, and after the US review found them operationally harmless other than highlighting possible war crimes, he knew what he was giving over and his intentions.

I would hope a clause can be included into any military confidentiality agreement that covers war crimes..highly unlikely but one can hope.

He had no idea what he was giving over. He just knew what the information was categorized.

The man is guilty of all but two of the charges, because he didn't directly have the want to aid the enemy. He however did betray his position of trust. He willfully gave a foreign national classified information that could potentially be harmful to his nations security. Had he only released the few items that where illegal such as the video and a few others we would be having a different conversation. However he did not know what he was giving away.

I hope he spends a long long time behind bars.

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#21    ciriuslea

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostThanato, on 30 July 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

He had no idea what he was giving over. He just knew what the information was categorized.

The man is guilty of all but two of the charges, because he didn't directly have the want to aid the enemy. He however did betray his position of trust. He willfully gave a foreign national classified information that could potentially be harmful to his nations security. Had he only released the few items that where illegal such as the video and a few others we would be having a different conversation. However he did not know what he was giving away.

I hope he spends a long long time behind bars.

~Thanato

I do agree with the conclusion of his guilt...but

Of course he knew...he stated or it has been stated that he grew increasingly concerned over certain aspects of combat he didn't agree with, which was reflected in the files he took..and as stated earlier, after review the US found no important info that threatened the US other than perhaps 'criminal' practice by the military...to download 700k? files not knowing what they contained, he got very lucky that at least one didn't contain anything that could "aid the enemy" I tend to think if the US had to review the files then he was privvy to more sensitive info he could have handed over that would have...

I tend to think he should be punished but what for I don't really know...and that if war crimes are being committed by the US military, it was his duty to speak out as well as keep silent as he was a soldier in the US army...I think he did the right thing for him because at the end of the day he's the one who has to live with his own conscience, and sometimes losing your freedom is not nearly as bad as living with the guilt that you didnt do anything.


#22    Thanato

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:16 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 31 July 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

I do agree with the conclusion of his guilt...but

Of course he knew...he stated or it has been stated that he grew increasingly concerned over certain aspects of combat he didn't agree with, which was reflected in the files he took..and as stated earlier, after review the US found no important info that threatened the US other than perhaps 'criminal' practice by the military...to download 700k? files not knowing what they contained, he got very lucky that at least one didn't contain anything that could "aid the enemy" I tend to think if the US had to review the files then he was privvy to more sensitive info he could have handed over that would have...

I tend to think he should be punished but what for I don't really know...and that if war crimes are being committed by the US military, it was his duty to speak out as well as keep silent as he was a soldier in the US army...I think he did the right thing for him because at the end of the day he's the one who has to live with his own conscience, and sometimes losing your freedom is not nearly as bad as living with the guilt that you didnt do anything.

The problem is. If he only exposed the crimes he would be viewed very differently. What he did was take hundreds of thousands of files and gave them to a foreign national.

~Thanato

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#23    DieChecker

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:17 AM

View PostKowalski, on 30 July 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I can certainly see your point, but my question is why is Manning on trial, and the corrupt pieces of filth who perpetrated the crimes he exposed not?

Great links by the way! :)
I think that if there is evidence they should be brought to trial also.

If Manning had gone in and just published the documents that actually exposed government abuse and military/war crimes, I say he should be let free. But that is not what he did. He harvested hundreds of thousands of documents and sent them unread to a foreign national who he knew could publish them worldwide.

View PostThanato, on 31 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

The problem is. If he only exposed the crimes he would be viewed very differently. What he did was take hundreds of thousands of files and gave them to a foreign national.

~Thanato
Ha ha... Great minds and whatnot....

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#24    DieChecker

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:19 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 31 July 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

Of course he knew...he stated or it has been stated that he grew increasingly concerned over certain aspects of combat he didn't agree with, which was reflected in the files he took..and as stated earlier, after review the US found no important info that threatened the US other than perhaps 'criminal' practice by the military...to download 700k? files not knowing what they contained, he got very lucky that at least one didn't contain anything that could "aid the enemy" I tend to think if the US had to review the files then he was privvy to more sensitive info he could have handed over that would have...

Actually I believe Mr Assange said there were thousands of documents he would NOT post online due to their sensitive nature. Who knows if those files actually held state secrets that the Taliban or Al'Quida might have used against us. Let me see if I can find a source.....

EDIT: Many of the documents released by Wikileaks were redacted...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks

Appears however from what I've just been reading that I can't confirm or denigh that US secret documents have been withheld.

Assange has withheld a lot of documents and has said he will expose great secrets if anyone moves against him. So maybe he does still have the best, juiciest bits still from Convict Mannings sendings?

Edited by DieChecker, 31 July 2013 - 01:29 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#25    ciriuslea

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostThanato, on 31 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

The problem is. If he only exposed the crimes he would be viewed very differently. What he did was take hundreds of thousands of files and gave them to a foreign national.

~Thanato

Firstly I'm not too sure about that, and as for the rest I'm not in dispute,

but the facts are he took files that did show war crimes and the reason he took them so he claimed was because they were proof of war crimes,

I'm not going to argue he knew the contents of every file, nor am I going to comment about stuff Assange says he still has that are of a sensitive nature.

I just wont accept that he didn't know what he was taking and just willy nilly downloaded secret military stuff...


#26    Orcseeker

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 02:59 AM

It's funny how society has been turned against people like Joseph Kony, Gadaffi, etc. Claiming they committed many war crimes and everyone is up in arms. But when the people of their own country commit a war crime, not many people bat an eyelid.

Something is wrong here.


#27    DieChecker

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 04:16 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 31 July 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Firstly I'm not too sure about that, and as for the rest I'm not in dispute,

but the facts are he took files that did show war crimes and the reason he took them so he claimed was because they were proof of war crimes,

I'm not going to argue he knew the contents of every file, nor am I going to comment about stuff Assange says he still has that are of a sensitive nature.

I just wont accept that he didn't know what he was taking and just willy nilly downloaded secret military stuff...
Do the math. At one document in 10 seconds, 700,000 documents is about 2000 hours. So unless he was staying up all night, every night for 16 hours a day, for 120 days he did not read all of the documents. Even 10 seconds is not really enough to read and digest and save a document. He never mentioned that he spent months of his life during his own personnal time doing nothing else but reading these documents. If we assume 30 seconds per document and 12 hours of reading a day, then that would take about 5800 hours, or about 490 days.

Do you really think he took 490 days, reading for 12 hours a day, every single day, and read and understood all those documents?

If I can be convinced he did that. I'll call my Senators and plead with them to intervene and get him a pardon.

Edited by DieChecker, 31 July 2013 - 04:19 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#28    Norbert the Incredible

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 05:57 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 31 July 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Firstly I'm not too sure about that, and as for the rest I'm not in dispute,

but the facts are he took files that did show war crimes and the reason he took them so he claimed was because they were proof of war crimes,

I'm not going to argue he knew the contents of every file, nor am I going to comment about stuff Assange says he still has that are of a sensitive nature.

I just wont accept that he didn't know what he was taking and just willy nilly downloaded secret military stuff...
he clearly didn't know what any of them were. he just picked up a great (metaphorical) armful and gave the lot to Mr. Assange, who (see above) doesn't want to blackmail anyone at all.

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh, 31 July 2013 - 05:58 AM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#29    ciriuslea

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:52 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 31 July 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

he clearly didn't know what any of them were. he just picked up a great (metaphorical) armful and gave the lot to Mr. Assange, who (see above) doesn't want to blackmail anyone at all.

We have to agree to disagree, the evidence just doesn't back up your claim as far as I'm concerned, no breach of intel that threatened troops or NS was detected in any of the files and they did show evidences of foul play by the US, IMO to suggest he just picked a bunch of random files not knowing what he had is absurd, they may well have been categorised and be at a security level, but  at best I would go as far as saying he knew the type of reports the files contained and he knew some of them contained evidence of foul play,

What else is interesting is the sheer weight of digital intel the military must have collected in both Iraq and Afghanistan, 700k files is quite possibly a drop in the ocean. I wont for one minute believe Manning was only privy to 700k files.....the very files he took...I suspect he was cleared to view billions of files...

I guess then that the implications are even more far reaching if evidence of war crimes were found in 700k random files then imagine what exists in the rest of them


#30    ciriuslea

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 31 July 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Do the math. At one document in 10 seconds, 700,000 documents is about 2000 hours. So unless he was staying up all night, every night for 16 hours a day, for 120 days he did not read all of the documents. Even 10 seconds is not really enough to read and digest and save a document. He never mentioned that he spent months of his life during his own personnal time doing nothing else but reading these documents. If we assume 30 seconds per document and 12 hours of reading a day, then that would take about 5800 hours, or about 490 days.

Do you really think he took 490 days, reading for 12 hours a day, every single day, and read and understood all those documents?

If I can be convinced he did that. I'll call my Senators and plead with them to intervene and get him a pardon.

I'm not really concerned with this, its diversionary, and is there any evidence that he didn't view any of the files ?

as I understand it he became increasingly concerned with what was going on, so he must have viewed at least some of them, I'm unsure of what his role was and his day to day duties, his role was in data analysis ? so he had to at least view, read, listen to data to analyse it,

I also suspect one incident can have a huge digital footprint, take the helicopter shooting, just how many files of data would that one incident collect, the pilots comm's, other soldier in the helicopters, command, any other units in the area comm's, links to allies comm's, satellite tracking...you get the picture..the files soon add up.





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