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If God exists...

god suffering bad people

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#1    MrBene

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

I searched using different tags trying to find a similar post/topic but I was not able to.

So, I was discussing today with a friend (a christian) about what happened in a city of my country where a building blown up and 10 people died, many of them students with long lives ahead.

Anyway, the point is, if God exists, why does he allow suffering? why does he allow bad government and bad people ruling the world? why does he allow good people dying and bad people are still alive?

Perhaps it doesn't make much sense to you but for me, sometimes when these things happen (a friend of mine lost her 1 year old son last year) I always wonder why do we believe the things we believe if at any moment good and innocent people die. I am not saying that humans are not responsible, they are, but still, if we're ruled by a superior entity that sees everything and make stuff happen, then why innocent people die in unfair circunstamces?

I would like to read believer's opinion.

Edited by MrBene, 08 August 2013 - 07:32 PM.


#2    DecoNoir

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:26 PM

He's terrible at playing Sims: Universe.

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#3    Ever Learning

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:33 PM

this topic is done at least a few times a month i think. i think that life is a blip of time compared to the after life, so to say why do people die, is to view that experience ends when life does. so good people dieing in a world that we complain about, while bad people have to endure it. with the student thing we need combustion to keep us warm i.e fires, surely its that the upkeep of the building wasnt maintained properly, that was the problem rather than god causing it.

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#4    pallidin

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

I have no direct knowledge, only opinions.

My thoughts are that there are "higher dimensions" that we are not commonly aware of. Just an opinion.

Within these so-called higher dimensions might be life-forms much different than human. Again, just an opinion.

"Suffering" might be considered subjective, as we all know that suffering often leads to "learning to now not touch the hot stove, etc.."
In that context, "suffering" is a good thing at times. Other times it can certainly kill.

Yet, I struggle with issues of religion and human suffering on very high scales, such as deformities, cancer, etc...

As such I have no answers. I guess the Bible and other renowned scriptures speak of our world(our dimension) as being inundated with "evil" spirits. I have ZERO idea if that is the source of suffering, but there is a presumption in some circles that it plays a role.

I would like to think that when I die such mysteries will be revealed, rather than an eternal darkness like with the squishing of an ant.


#5    DeWitz

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:18 PM

The issue is called "theodicy" in theology and philosophy: If God is good, why does God allow evil (suffering, pain, etc.). There is no easy or obvious answer. Many traditions state that God created humans with free will which, when abused, leads to evil. This begs the question of why an omniscient God would create "free will" because of its obvious negative consequences. Others find haven in the category of "mystery." Some, embracing "mystery," purport that the undeserved suffering of Jesus on the cross redeems whatever evil we encounter in this life. Another old-time explanation, of course, is that suffering in this life is redeemed or rewarded in the afterlife ("pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by"). As this was employed to justify American slavery, I personally detest it.

There are may other popular and profound theories, but these are some of them.

My own opinion is that suffering and evil are part of our entitlement as humans, and Jesus (by going to the cross) indicated there are no depths of degradation and debasement which we can undergo that he hasn't already experienced. That's just my opinion.

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#6    ambelamba

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:08 PM

I think DecoNoir gave us a very simple answer. We have no reason to assume that God is good and moral.

Actually, we can assume that the Christian Bible is a one-sided propaganda if it was really formed under divine intervention.  

Or, like I suspect, it's just a form of simulation with virtually no intervention.

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#7    redhen

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 08 August 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

The issue is called "theodicy" in theology and philosophy: If God is good, why does God allow evil (suffering, pain, etc.).

Theodicy predates Christianity. The Hebrews wrestled with this problem, see Job and Ecclesiastes. The pagan Greek Epicurus posed the problem thus;

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing.
Then ---Whence Cometh Evil?---
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Quote

My own opinion is that suffering and evil are part of our entitlement as humans

That addresses the problem of moral evil, humans as moral agents. The larger problem I think is the evidential problem of natural evil; carnivores, ebola virus, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc.


#8    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:58 AM

It's not an easy question to answer. But at the end of the day I think that suffering is a necessary part of human existence (without suffering we cannot appreciate what we have). And sure, some people cop it worse than others. I don't know why one person suffers greater than another. But the existence of such suffering poses no problem in my belief in God. It's just part of life.

Ultimately our happiness on earth is somewhat meaningless. To paraphrase, what good is there in attaining everything in this world but not attaining eternal life? So don't fret if you're suffering. Be content whether suffering or not, though that is most definitely easier said than done.

And now that's said, I'm done. Hope it's helpful :)

Edited by Paranoid Android, 09 August 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#9    Zaphod222

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:09 AM

View PostMrBene, on 08 August 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I searched using different tags trying to find a similar post/topic but I was not able to.



Wrong-o. This is an old stalwart topic, addressed in this forum many times and in practically every atheist/theist debate you can find.
And why pick your explosion? Take 9-11. Take the Holocaust. Take the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Take the genocide of the Afghan buddhists. Take Pol Pot.

Theists have found their excuses, and atheists keep pointing to the absurdity of the benevolent personal god concept.

I came up with that already in second grade.

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#10    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:21 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 09 August 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:


I came up with that already in second grade.
I wasn't a believer in second grade. I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I turned to Christ as an adult studying at university.

It's funny how people take different paths to their world views.

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#11    Zaphod222

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:36 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 August 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

I wasn't a believer in second grade. I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I turned to Christ as an adult studying at university.

It's funny how people take different paths to their world views.

I wasn´t a believer then either. But I was curious, as I am now. It is funny how people use their intellect, or chose not to.

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#12    DecoNoir

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:38 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 09 August 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:



I wasn´t a believer then either. But I was curious, as I am now. It is funny how people use their intellect, or chose not to.

Was that a well placed jab or an attempt at a punchline?

I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Mostly because yours is boring as hell.

#13    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 09 August 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:



I wasn´t a believer then either. But I was curious, as I am now. It is funny how people use their intellect, or chose not to.
Ah, are you attempting to not-so-subtly imply that while studying at university I "chose not to use my intellect" and convert. Suffice it to say my choice has worked well for me. Good day, I won't disrespect you by insulting the non-belief you hold to be true.

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#14    Beany

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 02:58 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 August 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

It's not an easy question to answer. But at the end of the day I think that suffering is a necessary part of human existence (without suffering we cannot appreciate what we have). And sure, some people cop it worse than others. I don't know why one person suffers greater than another. But the existence of such suffering poses no problem in my belief in God. It's just part of life.

Ultimately our happiness on earth is somewhat meaningless. To paraphrase, what good is there in attaining everything in this world but not attaining eternal life? So don't fret if you're suffering. Be content whether suffering or not, though that is most definitely easier said than done.

And now that's said, I'm done. Hope it's helpful :)
One could also say that what's the point of eternal life if the current life we're living is meaningless. And there's no assurance that the next life would be better. The trick would be, I think, to make the present, what we have now, what we KNOW we have, worthwhile & joyful. I don't expect eternal life, nor particularly want it, either. I am content with life on this planet, being in the here & now, After all, if one believes in a god, s/he put us here, surely for a purpose. It's up to each of us to discover that purpose; it is my belief that we aren't here to suffer, but to celebrate, to savor, to dance, sing, tell jokes, sit our children on our laps, tend our gardens, to find the divine in everything we do and every where we go. If we do that, then how is it possible to suffer?

Edited by Beany, 09 August 2013 - 02:58 AM.


#15    Zaphod222

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 August 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Ah, are you attempting to not-so-subtly imply that while studying at university I "chose not to use my intellect" and convert.

I am not talking about you. I am not into name-calling. I am stating as a general principle that joining a cult is not a rational decision.

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