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If God exists...

god suffering bad people

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#16    DecoNoir

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:04 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 09 August 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:



I am not talking about you. I am not into name-calling. I am stating as a general principle that joining a cult is not a rational decision.

Zaphod, I'm going to suggest right now you choose your words carefully. The last thing this thread needs is a flame war, and your wording is pushing it.

I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Mostly because yours is boring as hell.

#17    Zaphod222

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:26 AM

View PostDecoNoir, on 09 August 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

Zaphod, I'm going to suggest right now you choose your words carefully. The last thing this thread needs is a flame war, and your wording is pushing it.

I am not interested in flame wars, and I see nothing wrong with my wording.

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#18    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 09 August 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:



I am not talking about you. I am not into name-calling. I am stating as a general principle that joining a cult is not a rational decision.
Could you then elaborate on your meaning if you weren't referring to me? You don't believe, I turned to belief as a 19-year old. I then said it's funny how we arrive at our belief systems differently (early on you weren't a believer and continue to not believe, I was a non-believer who converted). In reply you choose to use the exact words that I did - "it's funny how...." -but altered it to people who choose or choose not to use their intellect. Then you say that you aren't taking about me before making a statement about joining cults and rationality. To whom are you referring if not to me (or at least people like me who have chosen to believe in a personal God).

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#19    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:55 AM

To me it is simple, and works with or without god or a belief in god. Humans have free will. Using free will, we are able to learn, evolve and improve our selves and our race. Free will gives us the knowledge of choices/consequences and the ability to make choices and accept their consequences. It allows humans to be creative and destructive. To create, to encourage  joy, love, harmony; or anger, hate, despair etc.

it is all down to us. EVERY single human being has the innate capacity to be one or the other.

A force for good, peace, joy and creativity; or for hate, lust, anger and despair. That is the beauty, the power and the responsibilty, of being human. Be it natural selection/evolution or the influence of god, humans have the POTENTIAL to be gods them selves, to alter the universe and them selves, fundamentally.

I believe we wil survive, grow, and evolve into a race of beings who demonstrate the right and potential to take our place in the universe with other, wise and long lived species,, who also survived the testing times of evolutionary adolescence.

I am an optimist but also I am such a person my self, and i live my life by such precepts,  so i know any human being can chose the path to growth, development and enlightenment.

That is what being human means, whether god made us this way, or we evolved.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#20    the eternal me

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

funny how the ark of the covenant gets missed in these topics....

in essence the ark is a contract... a contract of non interference..
in the biblical passages there is the story of noah....
not that i put any validity to the story itself, i see it used as a descriptive tool to describe what is meant by the agreement...

an agreement of non interference places all that is good and evil (or whatever) squarely in our own actions and results thereof....

so the aspect of bad people being celebrated and good people having bad things happen to them are our own doing...

with the aspect of tragedies, this gets into another whole realm that has nothing to do with any agreement between any human and deity...

but it can be broken down into subcategories....

the actions of a person or group of people on another group of people....

accidents....

plain and simple....

from the aspect of accidents.... there is a lot of pain and anger.... natural...
but to blame it on some kind of deity is pointless....

in the aspect of tragedies inflicted upon many by a person or persons....

at some point (actually many points) this could have been stopped or changed....
but the inactions of the masses allows them to take place...

and back to the ark of the covenant.... and the non interference agreement....

history is full of examples....

however you chose to see them is up to you...


#21    the eternal me

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:16 AM

this illustrates what i mean....
what we chose to act on vs what we chose to ignore....
acts of "evil" can be stopped or changed if people did something about it...
if the test was not a test...
then all that partake, are as guilty of allowing "evil" to happen...

brings up the only valid question....

"what can i do?"

it all boils down to changing the way we think....

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#22    Artaxerxes

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:12 AM

Suffering exists to teach the soul about the physical universe. Separation to develop a sense of self, and physical pain to imprint or encode memories of the parameters of the physical body. I think suffering has more to do with quantum physics and the holographic nature of the Universe than any ephemeral feelings. The more emotional the experience the more powerful and longer lasting the memory it creates. Cutters, self flagellators, those guys in Malaysia who stick swords and pieces of metal through their cheeks, the Filipinos who have themselves nailed up on crosses, and the American Indians who have the flesh of their chests and backs pierced and then hung on hooks up in the air are all being controlled by the soul in order to gather information on the nature of the 3 dimensional + 1 time universe. Like computer code. The soul comes from a place where absolutely nothing exists without it first being thought of, and before it can be thought of it has to be learned or imprinted on the soul so that one day it will be able to use this information to create it's own reality. Who wants to exist in nothingness for eternity?

Physical suffering imprints the parameters of the body on the soul. It teaches the soul what it means and how it feels to be inside or inhabit a body.

Those guys in the middle ages who self flagelllated themselves were being directed by the soul to hurt themselves so that they could be imprinted with the parameters of the body. Like computer code. Cutters, people who hang themselves from hooks, tattoos, body piercing, those guys in Malaysia who stick metal through their gums and skin, are all being used by the soul to learn about the body.

The more emotional and painful the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates. The soul uses the body to learn about the physical universe and then when it's finished it casts it off like an old suit of clothes.  


Sometimes life doesn't offer us a choice. No one chooses to be burnt, or get a paper cut, or to be bitten by a mosquito and have to scratch, or poison Ivy, or any of a myriad of other unpleasant experiences, but suffering and pain seem to be inherent and inescapable experiences of the physical Universe.

It doesn't matter to the soul whether the experience is positive or negative. All that matters is that it experiences the physical universe, and lots and lots of it. And as far as it being hot or just warm, or freezing cold or just pleasantly cool, it's just a matter of degree. The soul just has to store up enough information to last for eternity.

Life's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and the soul learns holistically whether we want it to or not. We don't have to do jack squat for the soul to learn what it needs to learn. Yes, God is that smart.


There is knowing something and then there is knowing something. For instance, sex. I knew about sex when I was in the fifth grade. I knew a lot about it since I had read the book The Good Earth, by Pearl S. Buck when I was in the fourth grade. But, knowing what sex is, is way different than having actually made love to another person and actually doing it. The feeling, the emotion, the smell, the sounds, the touch, etc. Those are things you can't capture in a book or even on a DVD. Even just watching somebody else experience it is not the same. You have to participate in it to truly understand it.

There are a myriad of experiences in life that are like that. Tastes, smells, feelings, emotions, touch, sight, sounds, etc. What it feels like to jump into a wave and ride it into shore, what it feels like to ride a bike real fast over a small hump in the road, that feeling in the pit of your stomach, etc.


How do you capture what a green olive tastes like on paper? You can see someone on TV eat an olive but you in no way shape or form know what an olive tastes like until you actually put one in your mouth and bite into it. How do you describe the color red? What a flower smells like? What it feels like to have the Sun warm you? When you say we KNOW something, that is way different than actually experiencing it for yourself. I used to read the encyclopedia when I was a kid, and I learned a lot from it, but reading about something and actually experiencing it for yourself are two entirely different things and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.

Edited by Artaxerxes, 14 August 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#23    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:18 AM

View PostArtaxerxes, on 14 August 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

Those guys in the middle ages who self flagelllated themselves were being directed by the soul to hurt themselves so that they could be imprinted with the parameters of the body.

They did it because they didn't want to die from the plague.  Seen it many times on the history channel.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#24    Codemonger

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 August 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

To me it is simple, and works with or without god or a belief in god. Humans have free will. Using free will, we are able to learn, evolve and improve our selves and our race. Free will gives us the knowledge of choices/consequences and the ability to make choices and accept their consequences. It allows humans to be creative and destructive. To create, to encourage  joy, love, harmony; or anger, hate, despair etc.

it is all down to us. EVERY single human being has the innate capacity to be one or the other.

A force for good, peace, joy and creativity; or for hate, lust, anger and despair. That is the beauty, the power and the responsibilty, of being human. Be it natural selection/evolution or the influence of god, humans have the POTENTIAL to be gods them selves, to alter the universe and them selves, fundamentally.

I believe we wil survive, grow, and evolve into a race of beings who demonstrate the right and potential to take our place in the universe with other, wise and long lived species,, who also survived the testing times of evolutionary adolescence.

I am an optimist but also I am such a person my self, and i live my life by such precepts,  so i know any human being can chose the path to growth, development and enlightenment.

That is what being human means, whether god made us this way, or we evolved.

I agree with your statement, well said !! with the exception of evolved. Given the mathematical complexity of our very existence in this universe, I don't see evolution as being proof of removing God. What is the difference of God putting into motion the creation of the earth over billions of years (what a patient guy) and man eventually evolving from goo ? I'm sure he blinked his eyes while evolution took place, why would evolution be a show stopper for no God, I get lost at this point.  - Probably off topic though :)


#25    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:37 AM

If this "god" exists, then it seems he/she/it/? not only allows suffering, but actively participates in it. Exodus, and this is what it says

"This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again"

Note that it is "God" himself who commits these murders, not some psycopathic murderer doing "The will of God". Condemned from his own mouth as a killer of "biblical" proportions.

But then a religion based on the painful death of a man, and with it's identifying symbol being a sadistic death, is hardly going to be averse to pain and suffering. Seems more like a death cult than a religion to me, particulary if suffering is deemed necessary for us.  Oooops, there's my "agenda" showing again.

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 14 August 2013 - 08:00 AM.


#26    SpiritWriter

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

View PostMrBene, on 08 August 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I searched using different tags trying to find a similar post/topic but I was not able to.

So, I was discussing today with a friend (a christian) about what happened in a city of my country where a building blown up and 10 people died, many of them students with long lives ahead.

Anyway, the point is, if God exists, why does he allow suffering? why does he allow bad government and bad people ruling the world? why does he allow good people dying and bad people are still alive?

Perhaps it doesn't make much sense to you but for me, sometimes when these things happen (a friend of mine lost her 1 year old son last year) I always wonder why do we believe the things we believe if at any moment good and innocent people die. I am not saying that humans are not responsible, they are, but still, if we're ruled by a superior entity that sees everything and make stuff happen, then why innocent people die in unfair circunstamces?

I would like to read believer's opinion.

I think we get more than one life and that God's love is eternal. In the story of Ezekiel, God speaks to Ezekiel and tells him to prophesy over a valley of dry bones and tells him to command the bones to come back to life. It talks about how the bones come together with flesh and muscles right before Ezekiels eyes. It mentions something like the sound of the wind or somehow you could hear the dryness of the bones. They were described I believe as "all hope was gone."

You know what I just went to find it... it is Ezekiel 37: 1-14 . Its called Ezekiel and the Valley of the Dry Bones.

The Bible version sounds way better than I am trying to say it. It is pure poetry. I love that chapter. Anyway when I think of the troubles of this world and I see pain and tragedy, I think of that verse. Please read it so you know what im trying to say. The reason why is because we see this pain, but what is the most tragic? And after that most tragic is death and we all endure death. Do you think our bodies will last forever? Nothing we see with our present eyes can last forever I don't believe.

So... ezekiel describes this vast, antique army that comes back to life in full force and I think of us. We are alive right now.. but when will our bodies become sand? I think life goes on in its tragedy and through it we get closer to I Am.

So... all hope is not lost. It is better to be dead than in pain than be dead because there is another side. I said it confusingly so as not to say that this life is not a gift.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 14 August 2013 - 08:21 AM.

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#27    DeWitz

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:44 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 14 August 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

If this "god" exists, then it seems he/she/it/? not only allows suffering, but actively participates in it. Exodus, and this is what it says

"This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again"

Note that it is "God" himself who commits these murders, not some psycopathic murderer doing "The will of God". Condemned from his own mouth as a killer of "biblical" proportions.

But then a religion based on the painful death of a man, and with it's identifying symbol being a sadistic death, is hardly going to be averse to pain and suffering. Seems more like a death cult than a religion to me, particulary if suffering is deemed necessary for us.  Oooops, there's my "agenda" showing again.

With one proviso: Some Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and the majority of Protestants embrace the "empty" cross (the cross without the 'corpus,' the body of Jesus affixed thereunto), which is a symbol of life, a sign that life wins, defeats, overcomes death--in the end. I don't want to be pedantic, but it's an important distinction. Much of Christianity has been criticized for being a cult of suffering and death, but it is more so a celebration of life, even life "eternal" (another subject for endless speculation and debate!).

A question for you, given you cultural background and knowledge: Is it possible that one reason why the Eastern Orthodox Church has been much less oppressive and violent than its Western cousins might be the more mystical, otherworldly nature of Orthodox worship? And/or its lengthy experience itself of suffering under various regimes, most recently Soviet militant atheism? What do you think?

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#28    Mr Walker

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostCodemonger, on 14 August 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

I agree with your statement, well said !! with the exception of evolved. Given the mathematical complexity of our very existence in this universe, I don't see evolution as being proof of removing God. What is the difference of God putting into motion the creation of the earth over billions of years (what a patient guy) and man eventually evolving from goo ? I'm sure he blinked his eyes while evolution took place, why would evolution be a show stopper for no God, I get lost at this point.  - Probably off topic though :)
I am lucky. I KNOW god as a real, physical, powerful being, with a personal and protective interest in me. Thus i do not have to support a constructed belief in god via accepting creation. The evidences for evolution are clear but they do nothing to deny the existence of a very real powerful god who is very interested in humans as individuals and as a race. A belief in creation is necesary for some humans who have to have a belief in god based on faith, but not for all, and it flies in the face of all the evidence. So then you have to construct theories for WHY god would use creation and yet include  overwhelming evidences for evolution.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#29    Mr Walker

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 14 August 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

If this "god" exists, then it seems he/she/it/? not only allows suffering, but actively participates in it. Exodus, and this is what it says

"This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again"

Note that it is "God" himself who commits these murders, not some psycopathic murderer doing "The will of God". Condemned from his own mouth as a killer of "biblical" proportions.

But then a religion based on the painful death of a man, and with it's identifying symbol being a sadistic death, is hardly going to be averse to pain and suffering. Seems more like a death cult than a religion to me, particulary if suffering is deemed necessary for us.  Oooops, there's my "agenda" showing again.

Dont forget this story was written for, and by, the  hebiru. In that context god acted to free his people from slavery, sort of like the north in the american civil war. Was the suffering and death in the civil war morally justified to bring about the end of slavery, or not? Depends who is writing the history I suspect.

And as another poster pointed out, the willing sacrificial death of one man, so that all could have imortal life is hardly a death cult more of a life cult and very noble like horatio on the bridge sacrificng himself so his comrades might live. Because, of course, after death christ rose and was restored to immortal life. (or so the story goes) He was the symbolic avatar for every human to whom christianity offers the same hope All humans shalll die but many (those who believe in me) shall have immortal life after death and resurrection.

Edited by Mr Walker, 14 August 2013 - 01:30 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#30    White Crane Feather

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

If you play a video game where there is no struggle you will not play for very long. You see this all the time in rich people. They can have everything in the world yet they still creat turmoil for themselves. Consciousness is built on duality. Nothing good would exist with out the bad. No compassion, no heroism, no accomplishment. If there is a creator god, I think it was very wise to create suffering. It really is the only way to have sentience. Without a recognition of what is good and what is not and experience with both the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil cannot be realized and human sentience cannot exist. Evolution spent billions of years of death and carnage to evolve sentience. Without it we could not have existed.

Duality is a necessary componant of sentience. Even A creator God could not escape this basic logic and is subject to it itself .

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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