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If God exists...

god suffering bad people

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#31    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:40 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 14 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

With one proviso: Some Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and the majority of Protestants embrace the "empty" cross (the cross without the 'corpus,' the body of Jesus affixed thereunto), which is a symbol of life, a sign that life wins, defeats, overcomes death--in the end. I don't want to be pedantic, but it's an important distinction. Much of Christianity has been criticized for being a cult of suffering and death, but it is more so a celebration of life, even life "eternal" (another subject for endless speculation and debate!).

A question for you, given you cultural background and knowledge: Is it possible that one reason why the Eastern Orthodox Church has been much less oppressive and violent than its Western cousins might be the more mystical, otherworldly nature of Orthodox worship? And/or its lengthy experience itself of suffering under various regimes, most recently Soviet militant atheism? What do you think?
Deeper mysticism in my opinion. And that there was less need to worry so much about it, to pick at the religion and mess with it. There is no Orthodox Savonarola , Luther, Calvin etc. But of course the Reformation was the prime mover in the religious strife in Western and Central Europe. There was of course some problems with Russian Orthodox when the raskol happened in mid 17th century and the Old Believers were exiled. But this did not cause a war, for the reasons were not theological, but about differences between Russian and Greek liturgy. It is arcane though.  The Revolution was a blip in the life of Church. There were some horrors during, and for a time after Revolution, though it was not destroyed. Stalin was not atheist, he was mystic, in opinion of some, but not all. I know this seems absurd and unbelievable, but we have testimony of his close bodyguard that Stalin attended services in secret in Kremlin, and had his confession heard at least four times during war. This information became knowledge after 1991 of course. The power the Church holds over people, the grip on the soul of Russia is not to be underestimated. That a cynical atheist like Putin, has, since 2000 crossed himself for benefit of cameras many times, and he does not need to do this, shows he knows this power. 75 years of Marxism-Leninism have mostly failed in it's religious aims. The State was atheist, many of the people were not. For me it is better to explain with a video. This is the Valaam Monastery. All these matters are more in the soul than written down to be disected. Despite some of my comments on this forum, I would never destroy this. My quarrel is with any rich and corrupt Patriarch in Moscow having any influence on temporal affairs. I still believe in atheist State, in that laws are to be from man, not the supernatural. In another life I could have been at Valaam, but I have this life, not the other...



Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 14 August 2013 - 08:03 PM.


#32    Codemonger

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:29 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 14 August 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

I am lucky. I KNOW god as a real, physical, powerful being, with a personal and protective interest in me. Thus i do not have to support a constructed belief in god via accepting creation. The evidences for evolution are clear but they do nothing to deny the existence of a very real powerful god who is very interested in humans as individuals and as a race. A belief in creation is necesary for some humans who have to have a belief in god based on faith, but not for all, and it flies in the face of all the evidence. So then you have to construct theories for WHY god would use creation and yet include  overwhelming evidences for evolution.

I do agree with you ( I think ? ) -  I can never understand how science nullifies the existence of God, it makes no sense. The creation and expansion of the universe is very very very complex. So complex, we only have theories to explain stuff, but as humans we can hardly even begin to understand it. Why would evolution be any different, it seems to be some complex process born out of the creation of this particular planet. No one ever said creating humans was going to be like a trip to McDonalds, it's cooked in 2 minutes and you drive through, unless you take the bible as a literal interpretation.


#33    LostSouls7

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:44 PM

He does not allow it. We humans cause and allow most of it.

If you want to find who to blame. we need to look at ourselves first.

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#34    DeWitz

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 14 August 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Deeper mysticism in my opinion. And that there was less need to worry so much about it, to pick at the religion and mess with it. There is no Orthodox Savonarola , Luther, Calvin etc. But of course the Reformation was the prime mover in the religious strife in Western and Central Europe. There was of course some problems with Russian Orthodox when the raskol happened in mid 17th century and the Old Believers were exiled. But this did not cause a war, for the reasons were not theological, but about differences between Russian and Greek liturgy. It is arcane though.  The Revolution was a blip in the life of Church. There were some horrors during, and for a time after Revolution, though it was not destroyed. Stalin was not atheist, he was mystic, in opinion of some, but not all. I know this seems absurd and unbelievable, but we have testimony of his close bodyguard that Stalin attended services in secret in Kremlin, and had his confession heard at least four times during war. This information became knowledge after 1991 of course. The power the Church holds over people, the grip on the soul of Russia is not to be underestimated. That a cynical atheist like Putin, has, since 2000 crossed himself for benefit of cameras many times, and he does not need to do this, shows he knows this power. 75 years of Marxism-Leninism have mostly failed in it's religious aims. The State was atheist, many of the people were not. For me it is better to explain with a video. This is the Valaam Monastery. All these matters are more in the soul than written down to be disected. Despite some of my comments on this forum, I would never destroy this. My quarrel is with any rich and corrupt Patriarch in Moscow having any influence on temporal affairs. I still believe in atheist State, in that laws are to be from man, not the supernatural. In another life I could have been at Valaam, but I have this life, not the other...



Thanks for all the information. I'm woefully under-educated regarding the Orthodox milieu and history. That's news about Stalin; I knew he had been in the seminary as a young teenager, but didn't know about his purported mystical side. As for Putin, I always had a negative "gut" feeling about him, although it's based only on his KGB history and his super-macho persona he cultivates and projects.

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#35    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 15 August 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Thanks for all the information. I'm woefully under-educated regarding the Orthodox milieu and history. That's news about Stalin; I knew he had been in the seminary as a young teenager, but didn't know about his purported mystical side. As for Putin, I always had a negative "gut" feeling about him, although it's based only on his KGB history and his super-macho persona he cultivates and projects.
A caveat that this affair about Stalin is not universally believed. Though it is true about a plane carrying an ikon of The Lady of Kazan being flown around Moscow at the battle end 1941. Then it was flown around Leningrad and later it was present at Stalingrad. This was not believed for some time, some still do not believe it, but the evidence from Church and State officials has shown that this "myth" was apparently true. I am reasonably certain about Moscow, but not the others.  And there were other things happening, some real, some not provable. Churchill was not wrong when he said "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri, 15 August 2013 - 09:44 AM.


#36    DeWitz

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostTutankhaten-pasheri, on 15 August 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

A caveat that this affair about Stalin is not universally believed. Though it is true about a plane carrying an ikon of The Lady of Kazan being flown around Moscow at the battle end 1941. Then it was flown around Leningrad and later it was present at Stalingrad. This was not believed for some time, some still do not believe it, but the evidence from Church and State officials has shown that this "myth" was apparently true. I am reasonably certain about Moscow, but not the others.  And there were other things happening, some real, some not provable. Churchill was not wrong when he said "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"

There is likely as much history not recorded, or at least not substantiated, as there are "official" accounts, in any nation or region. But this is fascinating stuff. Thanks for conveying it.

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