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#781    Leonardo

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 15 September 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Are you sure the curse was intended to play no part in the interpretation? I would disagree with that.

That's not what I implied. My own reading of it is the curse God set upon Adam and Eve defined the conditions their life would take outside Eden, but had nothing to say regarding the duration of that life. Neither was the duration of their life defined by anything related in the narrative of their time in Eden.

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you shall eat the plants of the field;"

These are the curses God levies upon Eve in Genesis 3:16 and Adam in 3:17. They make no suggestion that the duration of Adam or Eve's lives are shortened in any way either via the curse, or their expulsion from Eden. If, as some claim, it was continuing access to the fruit from the Tree of Life that granted perpetual life, then it would not have been necessary for the narrative to make the point that eating that fruit (and the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) granted likeness to God - because if A&E had already eaten of that fruit they would already "be as one of us".

There is no part of the entire narrative that suggests the duration of Adam or Eve's lives were affected by their expulsion from Eden, or the curse bestowed upon them. So placing an interpretation such as you suggest is not warranted by what is written or implied in that narrative.

Edited by Leonardo, 15 September 2013 - 01:35 PM.

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#782    JMPD1

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:47 PM

It is rather obvious what the tale tells us:  OBEY  or be PUNISHED.

really quite simple when you remove all the dross.

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#783    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:55 PM

One thing I just noticed from adam to noah humans were herbivores.   Because after the flood god gives noah permission to eat flesh but not the blod/life of them.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#784    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

There is no mention of how long adam and eve were in the garden or when they started to celebrate birthdays.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#785    Leonardo

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

View Postdanielost, on 15 September 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

One thing I just noticed from adam to noah humans were herbivores.   Because after the flood god gives noah permission to eat flesh but not the blod/life of them.

Then why was Abel a shepherd?

The answer to that is that sacrifices to God were supposed to be burnt offerings of flesh and blood. God is the carnivore and Man the herbivore. Together, they make an omnivore.

Make of that what you will.

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"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#786    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:



Then why was Abel a shepherd?

The answer to that is that sacrifices to God were supposed to be burnt offerings of flesh and blood. God is the carnivore and Man the herbivore. Together, they make an omnivore.

Make of that what you will.

View PostLeonardo, on 15 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:



Then why was Abel a shepherd?

The answer to that is that sacrifices to God were supposed to be burnt offerings of flesh and blood. God is the carnivore and Man the herbivore. Together, they make an omnivore.

Make of that what you will.


Most sheep are kept for their wool. Few end up onj the dinner table.  Thy could have also gotten milk/cheesse from them.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#787    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:43 PM

View Postdanielost, on 15 September 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

One thing I just noticed from adam to noah humans were herbivores.   Because after the flood god gives noah permission to eat flesh but not the blod/life of them.
Herbivores do not have canine teeth, carnivores and omnivores do. We have canine teeth because we are omnivores, just like our ape cousins.


#788    AtlantisRises

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 07:11 PM

View Postdanielost, on 15 September 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Most sheep are kept for their wool. Few end up onj the dinner table.  Thy could have also gotten milk/cheesse from them.

That's not true at all. Sheep are eaten all over the world in large quantities. Indeed in Australia it is probably consumed more then any other meat. Assuming an American diet on an ancient culture is just foolish.

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#789    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostJMPD1, on 15 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

It is rather obvious what the tale tells us:  OBEY  or be PUNISHED.

really quite simple when you remove all the dross.

Actually it was adam obey or everyone would be punished.  That was lifted with the resurection of christ.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#790    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostKaa-Tzik, on 15 September 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:


Herbivores do not have canine teeth, carnivores and omnivores do. We have canine teeth because we are omnivores, just like our ape cousins.
The gorilla is a herbivore. It has huge canines.  Chimps eat meat.  Humans eat meat, but our canines are too small to use as weapons.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#791    JMPD1

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:43 PM

Adam in the OT, Yeshua in the New, still the same old story:  one person sacrificed for the good of all.

Can we say:  scapegoat?

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#792    danielost

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostAtlantisRises, on 15 September 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:



That's not true at all. Sheep are eaten all over the world in large quantities. Indeed in Australia it is probably consumed more then any other meat. Assuming an American diet on an ancient culture is just foolish.

But, if you a herbavore you can still use sheep for their wool and milk.

One of the things that happened after the flood is god made the animals scared of us.



I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#793    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:08 PM

View Postdanielost, on 15 September 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The gorilla is a herbivore. It has huge canines.  Chimps eat meat.  Humans eat meat, but our canines are too small to use as weapons.
Gorillas are indeed herbivores, but the fact that they have canines shows that in the past they ate meat. The reason they still have canines is for threat posturing and fighting. Our canines became much smaller over our evolutionary journey to becoming homo sapiens because we became tool users and gained the ability to strip flesh of animals and cook it. We still eat meat, but we just don't need canines anymore. Yes, gorillas have some tool using ability, but poking sticks into termite mounds is a very long way from our abilities. Gorillas don't make spear or guns, so they still need their canines to fight.


#794    Mr Walker

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:04 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 September 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

What "evidences"?



If someone were to warn you off doing something "else you would die", it does not mean you are immortal, it only means you are currently alive and taking that action would kill you. There is no 'rational logic' behind your intepretation that God's words meant A&E were immortal, only the need to justify your belief they were.



No, the logical conclusion is that everything that would have happened in idyllic conditions in Eden, now instead happened in non-idyllic conditions outside Eden. Apart from that transfer from idyllic to non-idyllic environment, and the curse of work/childbirth God levied upon A&E, nothing else in the conditions of A&E's lives changed - unless you impose into the narrative what it doesn't state.

You are then arguing my point. That while in eden, adam and eve would not die because there was nothing to kill them.  ie they were immortal. Genesis says they were removed from eden purely to stop them eating from the tree of life,not to  put them into a hazardous environment which might result in their death. It was removal from the tree of lifewhich changed their lives and why it was necessary for god to put an angel to guard the enterance to eden.

Some analysts believ that the tree of life was a symbolical refernce to god himself, who in the bible is the source of all life. Separate from god all humans are mortal.  United with god all humans are immortal. This is the basic message of the old and new testament and of christianity.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#795    Mr Walker

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 12:20 AM

View PostJMPD1, on 15 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

It is rather obvious what the tale tells us:  OBEY  or be PUNISHED.

really quite simple when you remove all the dross.
Wrong choice of alternatives. Obey the rules or suffer the natural consequences  Eg dont walk off a cliff or you will die. The OT is a set of morality tales designed to teach peole how to behave. The behaviors all had good social and logicla purposes Religion and belief simply added a powerful motivator to rational logical laws.

Even to day people who live by gods laws have longer happier and healthier outcomes than those who do not. One neve need experince guilt anger pain depression or lonliness for example if one folows gods laws and believes in god.And they will never get into anytrouble with the police or nehgbours/community.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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