Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

two choices


  • Please log in to reply
965 replies to this topic

#931    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,128 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:40 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 October 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

The universe created itself because non-existence is a contradiction in terms.  The physics here is not as well known as the above message implies, but we have a good idea.  That there God was created in the process is a new one on me and certainly doesn't fit any physics I know of.

Now you are contradicting yourself in terms. If non-existence is a contradiction in terms, How could the universe have created itself if it did not exist to create itself?


#932    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,128 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 07 October 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

You are writing  your belief. Science demonstrates your belief to be unsound. ( because science shows how something can naturally and spontaneousely develop from nothing) And logic demonstrates it to be illogical. If god can exist forever then why not the universe? If the universe required creating then why not god? etc. On the other hand I will not attack a belief because a belief is just that and requires no scientific support. It can really only exist outside of science and knowledge. Your thinking is confined by your belief. Just accpet that it is not only possible but natural  and inevitable, for something to come fromm nothing and you will reset your logic and your thinking.

So, Science shows how something can naturally and spontaneously develop from nothing. Go right ahead and share it with me. I am all ears. If God did not live forever He could not be eternal. The universe can't because we have established proof as a fact from everyday life that it had a beginning. Even the theory of the BB made known in 1922 by George Lemaitre confirmed the Bible that the universe had a beginning and that the Creator is an Eternal Spiritual Being. (Gen.1:1)

Edited by Ben Masada, 08 October 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#933    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,128 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 07 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

I will try and put this simply. The only universe in which there is no need(and indeed no room ) for a "creator god" is one in which creation is a natural spontaineous ocurence. And what is "creation"? The movement or change from something to nothing. All that follows this is entirely natural evolutionary progress. Thus, when nature allows or instigates the change from a state of nothing to a statee of something; then, and only then, can natural evolution, with out any guidance or creation be possible, "from the beginning"

As I have told you above, I am ready for the evidences requested to demonstrate spontaneous occurrences our of nothing.


#934    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 14,465 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 08 October 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

As I have told you above, I am ready for the evidences requested to demonstrate spontaneous occurrences our of nothing.
How did God come into existense?

Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation

#935    Euphorbia

Euphorbia

    Odd Plant Grower

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,296 posts
  • Joined:19 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Somewhere east of San Francisco

  • You can't just choose to believe something.

    Believing in something doesn't make it true.

Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 07 October 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

That's exactly what I was about to ask you: "You don't get it do you?" Again: If the Creator had a creator, He would be a creature and not the Creator. And for the universe to have had a Creator, there is nothing purely rhetoric. It is a fact proved by the logical assertion that the universe could not have caused itself to exist.

Your mind is so focused on your fictitious god and that it is the original creator of all that exists that you are blinded by any other explanations.

I'm an atheist, but I know I can't 100% rule out a god. That said, you also can't prove there is a god.....any god. But no, you not only proclaim there is a god without any proof, you claim it is the creator of all that exists. I keep hearing from Christians that god has always existed and always will. Where's your proof? Why couldn't the universe as we know it have always existed in one form or another? We don't know what there was before the Big Bang, so why throw a god in to the picture?

To say that everything in the universe had to have had a creator except your god is more than a little hypocritical.....especially when your god is so very unproven!

Who has proved that the universe could not have caused itself to exist? Do you have any unbiased links?

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

Separation of corporation and state!

#936    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:12 AM

View Postjoc, on 08 October 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

How did God come into existense?
LOL yes a good one, but of course god (if the creator of the universe) is a superior order of being  and stands separate from the universe.

Ben's point is that god "always" existed. That is a belief statement open to too many imponderables for me. How long is always?

My logical extrapolation is that god, given its nature, if real and physical, must be an evolved sapient entity and thus MUST have come after the universe began. It is impossible, outside of belief, for a being to exist in sapient form with out learning/evolving the abilities and skills of sapience. Sapience occurs as a result of a long proces of learning.

Because i know from contact with "god" that god is physical, real and sapient, then the only logical conclusion I personally am able to come to; is that god, like you and I, is an evolved product of a pre-existing universe.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#937    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 08 October 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

As I have told you above, I am ready for the evidences requested to demonstrate spontaneous occurrences our of nothing.
They are availble via a quick google and a little reading. ( I just checked) Or, of course, you can  chose not to look, remain ignorant of them, and accept things in faith. (That is not a disparaging comment, just an observation)

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#938    Henriy

Henriy

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 16 posts
  • Joined:09 Oct 2013

Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:39 AM

Whether it is animal or person has two choices, different choices to the place is not the same, step by heaven, hell step. Animals shall not choose to run in order to survive and foraging, humans too.


#939    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 14,465 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 October 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

LOL yes a good one, but of course god (if the creator of the universe) is a superior order of being  and stands separate from the universe.

Ben's point is that god "always" existed. That is a belief statement open to too many imponderables for me. How long is always?

My logical extrapolation is that god, given its nature, if real and physical, must be an evolved sapient entity and thus MUST have come after the universe began. It is impossible, outside of belief, for a being to exist in sapient form with out learning/evolving the abilities and skills of sapience. Sapience occurs as a result of a long proces of learning.

Because i know from contact with "god" that god is physical, real and sapient, then the only logical conclusion I personally am able to come to; is that god, like you and I, is an evolved product of a pre-existing universe.
Isn't it just much simpler then to say that Energy has always existed and that 'somehow' Energy manifested into the Universe?  And that ...as sapient beings in the Universe, we 'created' the concept of God as a way to explain things about the Universe that we did not understand...and still don't understand?  And that because this 'concept of God' was passed down through countless generations from the dawn of Humanity that it is so ingrained in our brains that most don't even ponder whether God even exists?

Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation

#940    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:13 AM

View Postjoc, on 09 October 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Isn't it just much simpler then to say that Energy has always existed and that 'somehow' Energy manifested into the Universe?  And that ...as sapient beings in the Universe, we 'created' the concept of God as a way to explain things about the Universe that we did not understand...and still don't understand?  And that because this 'concept of God' was passed down through countless generations from the dawn of Humanity that it is so ingrained in our brains that most don't even ponder whether God even exists?
NAturally humans with evolved self aware sapience construct gods (and many other imaginative constructs)

This skill is not learned but is an inherent and powerful part of every human brain from birth. It is part of how we see our universe and of the thinking and language skills we posses.

BUT that same self aware sapience allows us to recognise, catalogue, and evaluate the wwhole environment around us. It therfore  allows us to recognise and perceive gods, just as it allows us to recognise and perceive cats and dogs. So gods come in a number of forms constructs and real entities. This is true for many things in human nature. We even "construct" cats and dogs using imagination. "Mccavity Mccavity a creature of depravity"

I know from personal experience that there is a real, powerful and physicla alien being, which humans call god But i also know humans make up and construct all sorts of gods.

We all, individually, also perceive real things, including god, through the knowledge and filters available to us as an individual and a member of our society. So the one real god, is not seen perceived or understood by everyone in the same way. This also happens with cats and gods Eg culture and individual perception makes a big difference in how a person sees and interprets/perceives a cat. For some it is a pet, for others lunch, and for some a threat; but given the physical nature of god, it is more exaggerated in "his" case.

Ps. I am not at all sure that energy has always existed. Why should that be the case? Once energy existed, then the universe did, but at one point there was nothing, including energy.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#941    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 17,137 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:20 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 08 October 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Now you are contradicting yourself in terms. If non-existence is a contradiction in terms, How could the universe have created itself if it did not exist to create itself?
What you don't see is that there is no "before" the beginning of time.  The universe creating itself was the beginning of time.


#942    Leonardo

Leonardo

    Awake

  • Member
  • 18,410 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Hell is a guilty conscience

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:57 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 09 October 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

What you don't see is that there is no "before" the beginning of time.  The universe creating itself was the beginning of time.

This, too, is a logical impossibility. Creation is an action which requires time in which to be enacted. There was no "creation event", there is only eternal existence. Of course, science can find a way around this in BBT by stipulating our 'universe' is not actually all that is (which is oxymoronic because universe means "all that is"), and the "creation" of the expanding region of space in which we live happened within a greater 'universe' which is unknowable to us.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#943    Ben Masada

Ben Masada

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,128 posts
  • Joined:06 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Israel

Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:58 AM

View Postambelamba, on 10 August 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Most Christians don't know that the character of God has evolved over time.

And to my interpretation Adam and Eve seemes to be royally duped. They say it was a rebellion against God.  I simply can't see that.

Perhaps you don't know that God is not subject to evolution. (Isa.46:5) And with regards to Adam and Eve there was no rebellion against God. The whole point was a Catch-22; aka a command to be obeyed by doing the opposite. If by reaching for the tree of knowledge man got knowledge of good and evil, how could the acquisition of knowledge be a sin? It would make no sense to think that way.


#944    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 17,137 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 09 October 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

This, too, is a logical impossibility. Creation is an action which requires time in which to be enacted. There was no "creation event", there is only eternal existence. Of course, science can find a way around this in BBT by stipulating our 'universe' is not actually all that is (which is oxymoronic because universe means "all that is"), and the "creation" of the expanding region of space in which we live happened within a greater 'universe' which is unknowable to us.
There is no need for time to extend backward forever.  That is a psychological, not a logical, demand.  A beginning of time is in fact a logical necessity for there to be a "now," as without a beginning, "now" could never be reached.

Every time this subject comes up I am met by a wall of incomprehension, something I just do not understand.  I think it comes from thinking of infinity as a number, which it ain't.

The creation of the universe as we know it, the "Big Bang" may or may not coincide with the beginning of time -- that we don't know -- but there is no question logically that time had to have a finite beginning.


#945    Leonardo

Leonardo

    Awake

  • Member
  • 18,410 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Hell is a guilty conscience

Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:20 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 09 October 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

There is no need for time to extend backward forever.  That is a psychological, not a logical, demand.  A beginning of time is in fact a logical necessity for there to be a "now," as without a beginning, "now" could never be reached.

Every time this subject comes up I am met by a wall of incomprehension, something I just do not understand.  I think it comes from thinking of infinity as a number, which it ain't.

The creation of the universe as we know it, the "Big Bang" may or may not coincide with the beginning of time -- that we don't know -- but there is no question logically that time had to have a finite beginning.

See, I would suggest the need to impress a 'beginning' upon time was the psychological demand. That seems apparent when you appeal to your sense of 'self-time' in your argument regarding why there is a "now".

There is no logicality to inventing a 'beginning' to time, unless you are only speaking of time as a local phenomenon. But we are talking in universals here, so locality does not apply.

Edited by Leonardo, 09 October 2013 - 09:22 AM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users