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[Merged] Madeleine McCann


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#16    Aaronsmom

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:27 AM

No Becky's Mom...I don't think a person would have to be "bonkers" to leave three young children in an apartment while having dinner 100 ft. away. I reserve calling a parent bonkers for things like believing the child is possessed by demons and must be murdered, or rejecting medical care for a child with cancer, instead holding prayer vigils over the child, speaking in tongues, believing The Lord will cure him, and believing, when the child isn't saved by The Lord, that if they keep praying, the dead child will be resurrected. That's what I call a parent being bonkers. Or leaving a 6-yr-old and 4-yr-old at home alone while the parents go to the Bahamas for a couple of weeks. Or pushing your car into a lake with two little boys strapped in the back, drowning them, then telling everyone the was jacked by a robber, so she can be with some boyfriend that doesn't want kids. That to me is a parent being bonkers.

What the McCanns did, IMO, was naive and too trusting--it wasn't taking into practical consideration how badly things can go wrong in a matter of seconds with very small children when a parent's back is turned for a minute, or isn't close enough to see or hear everything happening in the room where the child is. What they did was be human. Humans who make mistakes, overlook something, not exercise good judgment every single second of their lives, not know something the rest of the world assumes they know. Let's face it: all of use who are here, reading and posting in this forum, reached adulthood in part by incredibly good luck; we weren't run over by a car the time we darted across the street when we were six and our mother or father didn't stop us in time, but the car swerved or screeched to a halt in the nick of time; someone saw us in the swimming pool where we had ventured out too far and fished us out before we could drowned, when there just as easily might have been no one there; we made it to and from school every day without getting snatched by a predatory pedophile, like the pervert who got Etan Patz; or we were found by someone caring and kind when we got lost in a store with our mom who helped us find our parent instead of being the twisted creep who abducted Adam Walsh; or we didn't get Reyes' Syndrome when we were given aspirin when we had chicken pox as children which people didn't know back then was dangerous; or a hundred million other things that worked out in our favor that could just as easily gone disastrously, or tragically, and we wouldn't have survived childhood, that could have been the result of a lapse in judgment or vigilance by our parents.

I think it's an unwise game to castigate someone we see who has suffered some atrocity by rationale he or she did something, or didn't do something, that we are so sure we would never be guilty of because we are so much smarter or better a parent, or driver, or judge of things than the other dumb schmoe. I say unwise because I have found life is brimming with great ironies, and we never know when we ourselves may end up being that "other dumb schmoe."


#17    dr no

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:41 PM

View Postxsas, on 11 August 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

I don't think you have to look much further than the parents. If the parents had been a couple of unemployed individuals from an housing estate, the media would have cut them to pieces but because they are a couple of professional Dr's, respected individuals..blahh

I am also sick to death of this whole thing now, we have kids abducted on a daily basis.. why is this one so special, I get parents asking me to recover their kids, their children but can't afford the fee's and this case has had millions thrown at it, we can recover kids for just a few thousand.

I totally agree,another child Ben Needham I believe was his name vanished on a Greek Island 10-15 years ago it never got half the publicity or money that this case has.Madeline was seen crying and asking her parents not to leave her alone again a couple of days before,what kind of parent would continue doing so?


#18    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostAaronsmom, on 13 August 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

No Becky's Mom...I don't think a person would have to be "bonkers" to leave three young children in an apartment while having dinner 100 ft. away.(SNIP)

I think anyone would be plain bonkers to leave small children home alone while they head out,for a night.. It was plain irresponsible of them, and look what happened the moment they do?  Least anyone forget what happened because they were being irresponsible? Risks like that are not worth it, and I think they know that now, don't you?   How can any responsible parent think its ok to leave small children alone whole they go out?  I call it bonkers, and I use that word to be polite about it...I wouldn't chance it if I took my kids on holiday, not a mission, not even if It were only 50ft away, I wont put myself first over them..

When we think of ourselves, and we do not give any thought for our children while we go to enjoy ourselves out, then we are more than just bonkers, we would be selfish irresponsible and uncaring parents IF we did this..... It is plain outright irresponsible... If anything happens to our kids because we left them alone, we have ourselves to blame..  No decent parent would dream of such a thing, and I am serious, its a fact...  

To lay the emphasis on this - This is not some John Huges movie, and the kid is not Macaulay Culkin, this is real life, and when people like that make selfish decisions, and leave their kids home alone, they could face the nightmares that awaits them when they return, and that is exactly what happened to the Mc Cans..Goes to show you, even if you are only a matter of feet away, you can face horrors afterwards, its a risk not worth taking..

I do not call what they did a mistake, I wont sit making up weak excuses for their actions, they knew it was risky to do what they did, any parent with common sense would know not to leave their kids alone, it's common knowledge,  therefore it was not a mere mistake, I call what they did selfish...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 13 August 2013 - 08:34 PM.

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#19    Aaronsmom

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:02 AM

I wonder if what's going on here is jealousy. Jealous because the McCanns are affluent professionals who could take their three children on a luxury vacation abroad and got worldwide attention for years when their daughter disappeared. Is that why some of you seem to despise them with such fervor?


#20    mattg

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:10 AM

Who would want world wide attention like that? That's something to be jealous of?
Trippy place, this.


#21    Antilles

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostAaronsmom, on 12 August 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

People do things. Most of the time, there are no  bad effects. Every once in a while, though, some freak thing will happen and then all of a sudden, a relatively trivial choice or course of action looks like an incomprehensible lapse in judgment.

The children weren't exactly left all alone. The parents left them after they were asleep in bed and joined friends for dinner at an outside table about 90-100 ft. away. Another couple with children also dining with the McCanns did the same. The four parents took turns checking on the sleeping children about every half hour. This was a quiet, low-key, upscale neighborhood, where the last thing a patron would do is expect a low-life criminal to snatch an innocent sleeping child from her bed.

She's right, you know.


#22    skookum

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:01 AM

View PostAaronsmom, on 11 August 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

I don't think so, and it seems the vast majority of the public does think it was a stranger abdication. All signs point to it. There's no evidence the parents are behind it, and the time line doesn't work at all.

There is little to no evidence that an intruder got in.  Originally they claimed the shutters had been jimmied open, that turned out to be false.  There was no forensic evidence an intruder had got in, no point of entry or exit could be concretely proved.  If you came back to your apartment and found your child missing surely you would look?  They tore the back off the childs reading book and noted down what times they checked on the children.

Then you have the dog cadaver evidence.

Doesn't concretely say the parents had involvement but doesnt leave them cleared in my mind.

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#23    Moon Gazer

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

Personally in my heart I don't think the parents were involved.  I think they made a MASSIVE lapse in judgement, that as a parent I cannot understand at all.  There is no way I would leave my kids in an apartment in a forgeign country while I went out for a meal.  I take my children abroad a lot, they eat a meal with us.  If we want to continue having a drink and they are tired we put them to bed and stay INSIDE the appartment with them.

In fact, once when we went to Bulgaria when my eldest was a child our apartment was on the ground floor with a sliding patio door (which locked fine) leading out to the pool area.  But it made me uncomfortable to think of people even being able to walk past the door that close to my sleeping child when I was in the next room so I took my mattress and slept on the floor at the side of him!!

I feel sorry for them as their child was abducted and that must be the worst feeling in the whole wide world, not knowing what has happened to her must break their hearts every day.  But as an outsider I have to say that the blame does lie with the parents for leaving their children alone.  You just don't do that.

Here is a link that shows the lay out of the restaurant in relation to the apartment.  You could not clearly see the apartment for where they were sitting.  It may have only been 100ft away but it was in a completely separate building, with trees and little small outer buildings between them.  In particular look at the photo titled "aerial photograph showing position of Apartment 5A" towards the bottom of the page. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html


#24    Moon Gazer

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 09:33 AM

View PostAaronsmom, on 14 August 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

I wonder if what's going on here is jealousy. Jealous because the McCanns are affluent professionals who could take their three children on a luxury vacation abroad and got worldwide attention for years when their daughter disappeared. Is that why some of you seem to despise them with such fervor?

It isn't jealousy at all.  I don't think any sane parent would want to be in their shoes at all.  This gained world wide attention because of who they are and the influence they have.  Someone else mentioned Ben Needham who was abducted during a holiday to Kos.  That wasn't in the headlines anywhere near as much, the family were an average working class family from Sheffield.

It shouldn't matter how much money you have, or what kind of job you have.  How much help and publicity you get when your child is abducted should not be determined by class.


#25    Antilles

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostMoon Gazer, on 14 August 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

It isn't jealousy at all.  I don't think any sane parent would want to be in their shoes at all.  This gained world wide attention because of who they are and the influence they have.  Someone else mentioned Ben Needham who was abducted during a holiday to Kos.  That wasn't in the headlines anywhere near as much, the family were an average working class family from Sheffield.

It shouldn't matter how much money you have, or what kind of job you have.  How much help and publicity you get when your child is abducted should not be determined by class.

Hold on. You start off by saying there's no jealousy then you say that Maddy's abduction has publicity because of who the McCanns are and the influence they have. That's not logical.

And I'm not replying now specifically to you but there appears to be a lot of what can I say? putting down of the McCanns especially from the Brits. I don't know the McCanns and I doubt any of you do either. I have posted with someone on another board who lives not far from them and speaks of them in glowing terms.

Doesn't mean much, I know but again, this malignment (I just invented a word!!) of the McCanns is the same as what the Ramseys went through.

We all agree, they made a mistake but they are the ones who have lived through this, not you. I have no idea how much they have suffered and are still suffering but what they did what was apparently a common thing at the time. Unfortunately for them and Maddie, they were targeted.

And Becky's Mom, while you're getting all steamed up about parents leaving their kids alone, sometimes both my parents worked at night and my brother and I were left alone in the house. We didn't burn it down, we didn't hurt each other, we didn't wreck anything and we weren't concerned.


#26    Aaronsmom

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:08 PM

Thanks Moon Gazer. I have seen that photograph, closer to the time of the abduction. Let me be clear: I'm not condoning the choice they made to dine with friends on the other side of the resort's plaza from where their children were sleeping. I doubt I would do that either...not with children so young. But I do see why they felt so naively safe in doing it. I have seen parents make questionable choices, things that caused me to raise my eyebrows, things I wouldn't consider doing myself. I have also looked back on some of my own choices and wondered why I did that. I thought, wow, that wasn't too smart. I'm really lucky nothing bad happened. I think back on things my parents did when I was little, and they seem incredibly naive or poor judgment. I think, I was really lucky it worked out OK.

Parents make all sorts of unwise choices and judgments over the course of raising children. And probably 99.5% of the time, people luck out and there are no bad results. But for those who get their foot caught in that .5% snare when lax precaution coincide with the worst possible timing and most unpredictable, freakish bad circumstances, too often it is a tragic twist..,just as it did for the McCanns the night their daughter was taken. That doesn't make them guilty of killing her. That's what bothers me here. It seems like people want to make the McCanns out to be child-killers because they despise them so much for leaving the children alone in their rooms while they ate dinner with friends. But making a bad parenting choice--even a stupendously bad one--doesn't make a couple guilty of killing their own child.

No matter how much people denounce them, castigate them, crucify them and beat up on them for leaving the children alone that night, I'm sure it can't compare to how much they have beat up on themselves for that decision-- and how much they will continue to do so, probably, for the rest of their lives.


#27    ciriuslea

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:17 PM

I always thought it was lazy to just say the parents did it, there was absolutely no evidence they were involved, over zealous journalists and the fact that parents are always amongst the suspects along with the small amount of leads that led nowhere imo left people with the assumption the parents did it, whats interesting is still no body has been found, if the parents did it...how did they dispose of her and why hasn't she been found, I prefer to think she was abducted and will probably be found like the girls in a recent case after managing to escape from some nutter who has her locked up in some dungeon


#28    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:24 AM

View PostAaronsmom, on 14 August 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

I wonder if what's going on here is jealousy. Jealous because the McCanns are affluent professionals who could take their three children on a luxury vacation abroad and got worldwide attention for years when their daughter disappeared. Is that why some of you seem to despise them with such fervor?

There are no parents I can think of who would want to be in their shoes including myself, calling it jealous is a joke, I doubt the Mc Cans would call any of it jealousy either... If they could swap the world wide attention for their child in return, don't you think they would do it? Any time I take my kids on holiday, they are with us at all times.. I would not dander out for the night and leave them alone for love nor money..  I know one thing, I bet the McCans wished they had not of went out leaving their kids alone and I bet that they wont ever do it again.

View PostAntilles, on 14 August 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

And Becky's Mom, while you're getting all steamed up about parents leaving their kids alone, sometimes both my parents worked at night and my brother and I were left alone in the house. We didn't burn it down, we didn't hurt each other, we didn't wreck anything and we weren't concerned.

Let me ask you - Are you telling me this because you think it's ok to leave small children home alone?  What point are you trying to make?

Do you realize that there are more people out there who would never do such a thing? Do you realise what social services would do if they found out that my hubby and I were off out for the night and we left our two small children alone at home?  Also, do you realize that all it can take is that one time? The Mc Cans could vouch for that too, sadly but it's true...

The Mc Cans only had to do it one time and that was enough and look at them now?   I could not take that risk, and I think after what happened to the Mc Canns and many like them, I am sure more people thought twice before taking such a risk... Like I said above, I bet the McCans wished they had never taken such a risk.....To lay the emphasis on this -  Sometimes, people can get away with it, and sometimes it only takes one risk of leaving children alone,  and game over..After that, you'd be wishing you had never of taken such a risk, and it would be one that will haunt you for life.   Some risks in life are not worth taking..

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   We all agree, they made a mistake but they are the ones who have lived through this, not you   

If my hubby and I got dressed up to go out... The second we close that door behind us, leaving our two small children alone, and hop off out to enjoy ourselves, we know that is no mistake, we know what we are doing is risky, and we know its wrong.. But if we do it, it means we don't care enough to worry about what may or may not happen, we would think to ourselves - "Ack sure they be sleeping, we'll be back later, come on lets go"..  Truth would be, my hubby and I would know fine well what we would be doing was not right, and we would know fine well it was a risk, everyone does..If we did it, it would be a deliberate risk done out of our own acts of selfishness and carefree attitude, and likely one that could cost us, just like the Mc Cans..That is something no one can seriously deny, not even the McCans..

Like the Mc Cans, what if we did that, and that too went wrong, we faced the same horrors  ( worst nightmare ) all because we took a risk, thinking all will be fine?  What do you think the authorities would say to us for taking such a stupid risk?...Would they say - Aww don't beat yourself up, it was a mistake?   Harldy likely... It can never be a mistake, it was done as a deliberate risk, one that they felt was good enough to get away with and nothing to go wrong, but sadly they were wrong..I bet they wish they had never had taken that risk.. There is a such thing as - We know its wrong, but we'll chance it anyway..!!

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 15 August 2013 - 03:20 AM.

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#29    Antilles

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:21 AM

Yelling even louder doesn't make you right.


#30    Aaronsmom

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:49 AM

@ciriuslea: yep, usually the first person/people LE and true crime buffs suspect is a family member. In the case of a missing or murdered child, it's usually the parent/s that are suspected. Statistically, that's who it is most often.

But even "most often" isn't always.  I have seen horrendous examples of parents or other family accused (wrongly) of a child's murder, with horrifying consequences--a grieving parent/s serving prison time for a child's murder, only to be exonerated later--perhaps months or even years later--when new evidence comes to light.

I'm thinking now of the murder of Jessica Lundsford, a young girl living with her father and grandparents in a Florida trailer park. The girl wasn't in her bed in the morning and there was no sign of her. The father had spent the night with a girlfriend. Even so, the police suspected and also the grandparents. They all took polygraphs; the police leaked the grandmother's test showed deception. A long ago arrest record on the grandfather was uncovered--something in his early 20s. Because much of the public viewed the family as "trailer trash", combined with the other bits of info, the three of them made easy targets. I remember many denounced the father for spending the might away from home, even though his parents were home with Jessica. Something told me this was not a family crime but a pedophile abduction. The horror of it is, while Jessica's family was being fingered by the police and public, that poor child was enduring the most unspeakable hell not far at all from her home. A registered sex offender who had done time for molesting little girls, but had slipped under LE's radar, kept Jessica captive in a neighboring trailer. When he felt the heat too close, he put the living child in a plastic garbage bag and buried it behind the trailer where he was staying. When the police found Jessica's body, the bag was partly torn up; Jessica had tried to claw her way out of the bag before she suffocated. I can't imagine how those people must feel, knowing what that little girl suffered. <shudder>

I agree the McCanns had no opportunity to so efficiently dispose of their daughter's body that it's never been found. I do think it's possible she could be alive, being held somewhere by an unscrupulous person. If so, I do hope she's found someday. It's awful to think of what her life is like if she is still alive, but that's certainly a better outcome than if she is dead--or never found,





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