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Bergman's Bear


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#16    Insanity

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostNatureBoff, on 11 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Okay, I got the pic from googling 'Bergman's Bear'. The size is a rough estimate from the Wikipedia statement:

The UK black dog and other similar cryptids from around the world are reported to have long slender legs, especially at the rear, with a long shaggy mane. This fits with the "trousers pulled down"  imv and would perhaps indicate extra fur around the feet to insulate against the snow on the ground.

The image appears to be on Monstropedia.
http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Bergman%27s_Bear
It is artwork created specifically for a fantasy roleplaying game, I don't even think the person is human, and can't really be used to suggest it is an artist representation of anything real.  Kodiak bears can have hind paws of 18", so the Bergman's Bear may be larger than other Kamchatka brown bears, but smaller than Kodiak bears, certainly not twice the height of a person  at the shoulder.

"We see things only as we are constructed to see them, and can gain no idea of their absolute nature. With five feeble senses we pretend to comprehend the boundlessly complex cosmos, yet other beings with wider, stronger, or different range of senses might not only see very differently the things we see, but might see and study whole worlds of matter, energy, and life which lie close at hand yet can never be detected with the senses we have." - H.P. Lovecraft, "From Beyond" Published 1934

#17    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:32 PM

Wow - this topic is full of a lot of, well, BS, to be frank. Mammoths. Shapeshifters. Really?
While I am very interested in B. Bear, its hard having a serious discussion with some of these posts. :/ We should make a separate serious thread for discussion imho.


#18    Levergunner

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:48 AM

I've come across some good info on this particular animal, although admittedly generic, it should help this particular thread. :)

Bergman's bear is a cryptid supposedly living on the Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia. It first officially came to light from Bergman, a zoologist, in the 1920's. He was researching Kamchatka brown bears, one of the three largest species today. Its actually one of the top contenders for the title of largest bear species, rivaled only by the polar bear and Kodiak brown bear. Now, supposedly Dr. Bergman was presented with a pelt that was most peculiar in that it had short black fur in contrast to the Kamchatka bears long brown hair, and was far larger. He also said he at one point found a massive footprint 14.5 inches by 10 inches, which, if accurate, is bloody huge.
One point that sticks out the information I've found is that most of Kamchatka has been sealed off during most of the last century for military reasons, so not many people have been allowed to explore there for awhile. A former Soviet official said "black giants were still reported."
So, we have enough details to make this distinct from the usual strain of massive bears there, namely the different fur length and color, and overall size. Its possible that its an isolated population, a subspecies, or genetic throwbacks of regular Kamchatka bears. Its also a simple case of mistaken identities in live sightings, as regular Kamchatka bears still get bloody huge, its not unreasonable for people to honestly mistake them for being far larger than they actually are.

Some info on the peninsula itself, it consists of about 100,000 square miles, a nice chunk of real estate, and a little over one hundred thousand residents. Rather thin population density, and very nice climate.
Its entirely possible that it is extinct, if it was real. But just given the sheer size of the territory and low population density, and most of having been isolated during the Soviet Union reign, its entirely possible some large critters are crawling around out there. Although the sheer lack of reports and sightings makes me stop and scratch my head. Then again, I wouldn't be willing to bet money that there are lots of bloggers in that particular area. But I wouldn't know, heh.
Anyway, a particularly large species of bear in an isolated chunk of land isn't terribly unusual. The Kodiak itself is much like that, so its kind of fun to think there is a jumbo bear species lumbering around in the forests there.

I hope I've been of assistance!


#19    Nateman

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostNatureBoff, on 11 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Okay, I got the pic from googling 'Bergman's Bear'. The size is a rough estimate from the Wikipedia statement:



The UK black dog and other similar cryptids from around the world are reported to have long slender legs, especially at the rear, with a long shaggy mane. This fits with the "trousers pulled down"  imv and would perhaps indicate extra fur around the feet to insulate against the snow on the ground.
Where do you come to think that something like that is even possible? I understand it would be large due to the 14.5 x 10 inch feet, but a lion's paw is around 10.6 x 11.2 inches.

If we were going off your foot sizes, then the lion would only be slightly smaller than this mammoth/mammoth bear/rock hyrax/were-creature. A lion has a shoulder heighth of about 4 feet tall. A mammoth had a shoulder heigth of about 11 feet. So this bear would have feet around the size of a lions (slightly smaller in some parts and longer in other) but would have the body size of a giant mammoth. The feet would be incredibly small and unporportioned, so they wouldn't be very useful.

Ontop of this you think it is/is related to the UK black dog? The UK is a pretty good distance from Russia and the ex-Soviet States, so this large creature that is around 11 feet tall is traveling to the UK unnoticed. It also seems you forgot the black dog, is supposed to be something like a dog or a maybe even a black panther that was released into the wild or was transported from somewhere. But then you say it is a were-creature which would be physically impossible.

Changing and moving your bones and anatomy in a mass transformation into a creature that is a comepletely different species than you? This is stuff outta science-fiction. I'm not sure where you develop these theories because you have no scientifical data to back these claims up.

Edited by Nateman, 12 August 2013 - 10:33 PM.


#20    Levergunner

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:22 AM

Bears and lions share different anatomy of course, and have different proportions. You do raise a legitimate point though, and I shall address it. Big lions can attain a length of ten feet long, tail included, and weigh 500 pounds. That's a big cat. They are of course built for hitting large and dangerous African game, but are also very stealthy. When stalking prey they spread their weight over the pads of their paws. Obviously, the circumstances under which the print you mentioned was made will have influence over the size of the mark its making. The size will vary if it was made while calmly walking, stalking, or sprinting. Whether it is one of the front paws or back paws definitely matter. The medium it was made on is important as well. Do you happen to know the actual size of the lion that you referenced? If so, do you also know from what region it was from? There are variations on African lion size throughout the continent, some areas having history of having larger specimens than others.
Also, the man who mentioned the print and measured it was studying the usual Kamchatka bears there for two years. Its presumable he would know the regular size of prints left by Kamchatka bears, even if he was a poor tracker. Well, presuming the prints were distinct.
Of course, the rules I mentioned above apply to the supposed Bergman bear print as well, but we don't know those circumstances sadly. Although I'm fairly certain that the soil and ground composition is very different from that of the African savannah. African territories are typically hard packed dry sand, and don't hold shape well. But this of course changes from region to region. The same applies to everywhere else.
Although, just for comparison, here is a print form a Kamchatka brown bear, just for us to get an idea of typical size. http://www.lbl.gov/S...03/Bear_paw.jpg
And in here is another, which heavily implies is much larger than the usual, but not freakishly so. http://www.cokesmith...-kamchatka.html

I'm not sure who thinks that there is a weird black dog, mammoth thing here. Bergman's Bear is just a cryptid bear. Not bloody hard.

I hope this has been of some help.


#21    abbeyxkpy

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:33 AM

I believe there is a good chance of a large bear sub-species in Kamchatka. Posted Image


#22    NatureBoff

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:59 PM

View Postabbeyxkpy, on 13 August 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I believe there is a good chance of a large bear sub-species in Kamchatka. Posted Image
They evidence is scant, to say the least. For a population of regular unknown bears to exist in Kamchatka, I would expect many more sightings and prints.

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#23    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostNatureBoff, on 13 August 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

They evidence is scant, to say the least. For a population of regular unknown bears to exist in Kamchatka, I would expect many more sightings and prints.

Not if the species is in an extinction spiral :0


#24    NatureBoff

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 15 August 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Not if the species is in an extinction spiral :0
There's no reason for a species of bear in a remote forested peninsula to either:

(i) Not be seen by occasional hunters, either the tracks or by sight
(ii) Be in an 'extinction spiral' since they aren't being shot by hunters or predated by anything else

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#25    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 10:39 PM

Quote

Be in an 'extinction spiral' since they aren't being shot by hunters or predated by anything else

Plenty of species go extinct without human help.
Climatic changes. Slowly being out competed by the more numerous common brown bears (despite the size of the area, large bears need HUGE territories). Disease. All coupled with low reproduction rates that bears usually have and you have all you need for an extinction spiral. ;)


Quote

not be seen by occasional hunters, either the tracks or by sight

Three points - a, much of that area has been restricted access for ages
b - there have been a few apparent sightings
c - for all we know, the bear that provided the hide was the last of its kind (i hope not!) - or inversely, (this would be ironic), it could have been the first (and because it was shot, last) of its kind. Maybe it was a mutation, that had it been passed on, would have led to a new subspecies of bears :o

Edited by Bavarian Raven, 15 August 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#26    NatureBoff

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:01 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 15 August 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

b - there have been a few apparent sightings
None as far as I'm aware. Where are your references please?

The object, known by the locals as "Bicho Voador" (Flying Animal), or "Bicho Sugador" (Sucking Animal), has the shape of a rounded ship and attacks people in isolation.

#27    billyf

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:37 AM

View PostNatureBoff, on 13 August 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

They evidence is scant, to say the least. For a population of regular unknown bears to exist in Kamchatka, I would expect many more sightings and prints.
so then it's more likely to be a giant,hyrax,were-beast!?!? i have to say, i do enjoy reading your hyrax theories...

so long and thanks for all the fish

#28    DecoNoir

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:08 AM

View Postbillyf, on 30 August 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

so then it's more likely to be a giant,hyrax,were-beast!?!? i have to say, i do enjoy reading your hyrax theories...

Hyrax theories?

I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Mostly because yours is boring as hell.

#29    cacoseraph

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:26 AM

View PostDecoNoir, on 30 August 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

Hyrax theories?

It seems that a certain user sort of equates hyrax to a magical stop gap for basically any cryptid type of situation, as can be seen in this thread.  I came across references to this hyraxism in comments on older threads from at least a couple years past and am delighted to find modern incarnations.

I think the sort of motivation/justification for this is that the hyrax is a relatively small animal, but is more closely related to elephants than rodents.  So, in very fuzzy theory, it could have the DNA to make a very large animal as a sort of atavism, even though they are in all known scientific incarnations not big at all.

wiki hyrax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyrax


#30    Papagiorgio

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 12:49 PM

View PostInsanity, on 11 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

It is artwork created specifically for a fantasy roleplaying game, I don't even think the person is human, and can't really be used to suggest it is an artist representation of anything real.  Kodiak bears can have hind paws of 18", so the Bergman's Bear may be larger than other Kamchatka brown bears, but smaller than Kodiak bears, certainly not twice the height of a person  at the shoulder.
The bear is a dire bear, and the person is a wood/wild elf. Dire animals are very common in D&D.

Edited by Papagiorgio, 30 August 2013 - 12:50 PM.

I'm just saying.




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