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Comparing Atlantis


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#856    Leonardo

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostMario Dantas, on 12 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

You are comfortably sitting on your actual knowledge of modern science, but you seem to ignore that Galileo's heliocentric theory was strongly refuted once, and that was that the sun was not still and it wasn't the earth that revolved around it, but the contrary...

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Mario Dantas

Mario,

With all due respect, that orthodoxy changes does not in any way suggest that any idea presented to change orthdoxy is 'correct'. Furthermore, the heliocentric view of the solar system promoted by Galileo was supported by evidence and observations from astronomy and other factual disciplines. This is an entirely different quality to the hypothesis you present - which is not supported by evidence or observation from any factual source.

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#857    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostMario Dantas, on 12 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Cormac,

Why do you keep saying that? Why do you always make things uneasy?

Atlantis could have been just an invented story, although i don't really believe that. Atlantis might be nothing at all. But one can't exactly prove it didn't exist either, right? Nevertheless, one should always remember that not all things in the past were as material as statues, idols, books, etc to name a few. How would people record anything in those days? by oral tradition? I ask, how do you expect to find anything material when information was transmitted from one generation to the next?

IMO, oral traditions can be very effective, but also very fragile (especially in war times). One should ask, how would a civilization that had lost everything transmit anything historical?

Are you not aware that the most beautifully well written literature came from oral tradition? Homer's poems are a good example of a knowledge we now have long lost. Tolkien also really drank from that water and gave us, "modern humans", a sense of what might have been the extremely intelligent people that once lived. Plato wrote dialogs, lol...

But i divagate... nevertheless, i have the right to follow closely your posts. You are terribly wicked, tricky and slippery, but that all won't avoid the fact that you are wrong.

You are comfortably sitting on your actual knowledge of modern science, but you seem to ignore that Galileo's heliocentric theory was strongly refuted once, and that was that the sun was not still and it wasn't the earth that revolved around it, but the contrary...

Regards,
Mario Dantas

I believe in evidence based on the facts, not making something up that is diametrically opposed to them as your idea of Greenland being Atlantis is.

In the entire time you've been here you've not presented one bit of factual, verifiable scientific evidence that Greenland has moved any significant distance from its present location, within human history. And I don't expect that to change since none of the sciences support your contention.

Perhaps you need to be reminded that you're not Galileo. You dishonor him by even suggesting you're in the same category IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#858    Mario Dantas

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:59 PM

My theory is very simple and tries to explain many actual geological facts. It could be wrong? of course...

Things are impossible until proven possible. Greenland was in front of the straits of Gibraltar 10.000 years ago, as far as this continental reconstruction show:

https://lh4.googleus.../Canary%20n.jpg

https://lh4.googleus...20islands22.jpg

https://lh4.googleus.../Canary%20n.jpg


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1. Catalog of Images
https://picasaweb.google.com/106047243612755133722

2. Was Atlantis in Greenland?
http://a7lan7is.blogspot.com

#859    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:08 PM

Quote

Greenland was in front of the straits of Gibraltar 10.000 years ago, as far as this continental reconstruction show:

Greenland was not in front of the Straits of Gibraltar 10,000 years ago, based on the evidence from various scientific disciplines. Because you can paste a picture of it there does not make it a fact.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#860    docyabut2

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 October 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

OK, and this is what Taun created for me, based on what I told him about the Strait of Dover around 8200 BP :



http://www.unexplain...40#entry4898656

And any sailor daring to pass those pillars would eventually reach the remnants of Doggerland, a now swampy area, muddy shoals, smelling to high heaven, and so on. An area the size of California destroyed by a giant tsunami, a tsunami that lasted for maybe 2 to 3 days.

I never wanted the Doggerland thread to be spoiled by bull concerning Atlantis, but I think that the early Strait of Dover comes very close to these "Pillars of Hercules".



I guess if anyone can find where these pillars really were would be the key.


Posted Image

Plato

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.


#861    Everdred

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 13 October 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.

Sorta takes the mystery out of it.


#862    docyabut2

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:48 AM

View PostEverdred, on 13 October 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Sorta takes the mystery out of it.

But that could be any straits in the Mediterranean.


#863    granpa

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:59 AM

well lets see.
according to plato we have a great continent that "may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent"
within this continent we have a sea and within this sea we have atlantis.
Between this sea and greece lie the Pillars of Heracles


Quote

this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent


Edited by granpa, 14 October 2013 - 01:00 AM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#864    Everdred

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:14 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 October 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

But that could be any straits in the Mediterranean.

Nope.  "Within the columns of Herakles" means on the same side as Greece.  So the geographical indication is that it must be west of Tyrrhenia (= Etruria, Tuscany) and Egypt.  The only ones on your map that fit are the three at or beyond the Strait of Gibraltar.


#865    cormac mac airt

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:31 AM

View PostEverdred, on 14 October 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Nope.  "Within the columns of Herakles" means on the same side as Greece.  So the geographical indication is that it must be west of Tyrrhenia (= Etruria, Tuscany) and Egypt.  The only ones on your map that fit are the three at or beyond the Strait of Gibraltar.

And the only one of these that separate 'outside' the Mediterranean from 'within' the Mediterranean and whose obstruction (upon Atlantis' destruction) would have prevented navigation from one side to the other would have been the middle one.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#866    docyabut2

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

The first distinction between continents was made by ancient Greek mariners who gave the names Europe and Asia to the lands on either side of the waterways of the Aegean Sea, the Dardanelles strait, the Sea of Marmara, the Bosporus strait and the Black Sea.[35] The names were first applied just to lands near the coast and only later extended to include the hinterlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

However to the Egyptians land near a coast line could have been a continent like Crete.


#867    Leonardo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:45 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 October 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

The first distinction between continents was made by ancient Greek mariners who gave the names Europe and Asia to the lands on either side of the waterways of the Aegean Sea, the Dardanelles strait, the Sea of Marmara, the Bosporus strait and the Black Sea.[35] The names were first applied just to lands near the coast and only later extended to include the hinterlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

However to the Egyptians land near a coast line could have been a continent like Crete.

Plato's narrative remarks that Atlantis sits outside the Pillars of Heracles, and has conquered lands inside but not yet Egypt or Athens. This means ancient Athens and Egypt sit inside the Pillars of Heracles.

Given also the reference to the lands that have been conquered, the only possible location for the Pillars Plato relates is the modern Gibraltar Strait. No other suggested strait or narrow passage fits all the requirements for the description Plato provides. Any location inside the Mediterranean precludes the "inside/outside" theme, and any location in/on the Black Sea or Red Sea precludes the suggestion Atlantis conquered those areas closest to it (Libya up to Egypt and Europe up to Tyrrhenia) prior to making war on Egypt/Athens.

This means Atlantis must sit in the Atlantic, as orthodox scholarship of the subject suggests and that Plato is not referring to a place in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East or the Baltic/Caucasian region.

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"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#868    docyabut2

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 14 October 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Plato's narrative remarks that Atlantis sits outside the Pillars of Heracles, and has conquered lands inside but not yet Egypt or Athens. This means ancient Athens and Egypt sit inside the Pillars of Heracles.

Given also the reference to the lands that have been conquered, the only possible location for the Pillars Plato relates is the modern Gibraltar Strait. No other suggested strait or narrow passage fits all the requirements for the description Plato provides. Any location inside the Mediterranean precludes the "inside/outside" theme, and any location in/on the Black Sea or Red Sea precludes the suggestion Atlantis conquered those areas closest to it (Libya up to Egypt and Europe up to Tyrrhenia) prior to making war on Egypt/Athens.

This means Atlantis must sit in the Atlantic, as orthodox scholarship of the subject suggests and that Plato is not referring to a place in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East or the Baltic/Caucasian region.


The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)


#869    Leonardo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 October 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)

That's all well and good, but I made no reference to how large Atlantis was supposed to be, but only commented on it's location as related by Plato - and the location of the Pillars of Heracles.

I'm quite amenable to the argument Atlantis may not have been so large as Plato describes, but that argument doesn't really factor into the location of it outside excluding certain areas if we consider Plato was accurate.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#870    Everdred

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:02 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 14 October 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)

We have the Greek, so we don't have to rely on any Latin translations.

In "Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent," continent is rendered as "epeiros" meaning "land, mainland, continent," not "island."

It should also be noted that "meizon" is merely the comparative form of "megas," the most straightforward word for "large" in the Greek language. The chap you quoted is deliberately trying to mislead you into thinking it's much more vague than it actually is.

Edited by Everdred, 14 October 2013 - 01:03 PM.





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