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Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge


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#61    spacecowboy342

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 13 August 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Yet another thing an NDE can be. My favorite 'explanation' of what the bright light is was that it was a memory from coming down the birth canal. Gave me a chuckle to say the least.

I wonder if our geniuses have ever considered that possibility that if one is perceiving a spirit world their might be some changes in the brain to alow that perception....

This is the problem with physicalist fundamentalism.
I thought the birth canal thing sounded pretty plausible. Any evidence that these are anything other than hallucination or that your supposed spirit world has any basis in reality?


#62    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:22 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 21 November 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Indeed, however, if you feel there is an afterlife, many religions insist it is for people only, and you wont be reunited with your pet dog when you get to heaven.
Who knows.  Buddhists think animals are generally reborn the same animal, but animals domesticated by humans have a greater chance to get the good karma that brings about rebirth in a "higher" state (that is as a human or in a heaven).

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What is the general consensus on this? Does not seem like a pleasant afterlife if parts of your physical existence are stripped back from you? That is what makes what I consider "The Spirit" of a person.
We constantly change and we constantly lose things and replace them.  Death can be considered just a particularly severe episode of such losses.

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If we were part of a simulation, would it not be impossible for us to know that, therefore the only reason to believe in a  simulation is belief in a simulation?
The argument is that if it is possible it will happen, and simulations within simulations will happen, and so on, so that if it is possible the odds are overwhelming you are in one.  That at least is the argument.

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I cannot comment on your personal experience, but mine tell me no such thing exists. If such does exist, why are people who want to visit this realm denied, and mostly people of dubious character offered entrance or insight by default? Like the Sylvia Browns of the world? Or that jumped up upstart braggit, Allison DuBois. Middle aged women with mid life crisis issues seem to be a target for the manifestation of this ability?
My experiences can be "explained" in more mundane ways so I don't dwell on them, but they have been enough to make me worry.  Obviously what you refer to are frauds.

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But doesn't brain malfunction affect these abilities?  Cognitive, thought processing etc etc? Is that not a physical connection?
So that shows there is interdependence and that at least while we are alive we are highly dependent on physical brain.  I still think there are times when mind can be independent of body, but that "proves" little.

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I am not sure that is possibly for everyone, as some have lived and died alone I am sure, but if everyone did return, it would be awful crowded wouldn't it? We would strip the entire planet of resources in a matter of month's wouldn't we?
It would require a technology that actually views past events.  I think worries about overpopulation coming from all sorts of places are overblown.  With that sort of technology all sorts of solutions to crowding can be imagined.


#63    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 07:01 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 21 November 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

I thought the birth canal thing sounded pretty plausible. Any evidence that these are anything other than hallucination or that your supposed spirit world has any basis in reality?
You are kidding right. Have you ever watched a baby being born? And by that logic, c section babies could never have NDEs. I doubt that's the case, though it is certainly testable.

Yes there is tons of evidence. what you define as "hullucination" is impossible to get around because of some very common logical flaws. Primary petitio principii.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 22 November 2013 - 07:02 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#64    spacecowboy342

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 10:54 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 22 November 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

You are kidding right. Have you ever watched a baby being born? And by that logic, c section babies could never have NDEs. I doubt that's the case, though it is certainly testable.

Yes there is tons of evidence. what you define as "hullucination" is impossible to get around because of some very common logical flaws. Primary petitio principii.
Actually I haven't watched a baby being born, but I still don't see how you rule out hallucination.


#65    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:09 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 22 November 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Actually I haven't watched a baby being born, but I still don't see how you rule out hallucination.
I can't rule out that your words on this little screen is not a hallucination. If I were to try, I would ask other people to compare my experience with what they can see. Reading the same thing I would conclude that indeed I was not seeing something that really wasn't there. However, it gets more difficult if I were in remote china and no one reads English. I could only tell  that there were indeed words but not if I were interpreting what they said correctly. Furthermore if all I could compare with we're blind people them it becomes more difficult. I could only have a consensus that English words exist. What about blind and deaf people? I could only know that my phone exists.

The point being you can only rule out hallucination to the extent that you can share in the experience. As it turns out indeed there are quite a number of shared themes in NDEs as well as confirmations by doctors of what NDErs have witnessed. Of course this dies not satisfy scientific scrutiny. Still about 12% of people brought back from near death report an NDE, do its actually reproduced all the time. Scientific scrutiny is necessarily hard to meet, but this does not change the reality of a thing. A good example is the Higgs boson. particle accelerators actually found it a long time ago. We already discovered it!!!!! The problem is that the probability that it was not what we thought  it was was only like 1 in 100,000 or 1 in a million ( something like that). That's not enough certainty for high energy particle physics!!!!! They built the LHC partly just to get a few more decimal places on certainty. actually they new it was going to happen and saved that bit to have a poster boy to justify the money spent. Smart people those particle physicists. :)

Anyway. The striking part about NDEs is that they occur at all. If you were to tell some alien scientist that humans have souls and upon death this soul transitions into another realm that is undetectable by physical instruments, potentially a substrate realm that provides the structure for physical reality. That scientist would then make some predictions and tests to see if this is possible.

1) if humans can remember this transition upon being pulled back from the brink if death, then there should be a certain percentage of people that experience it. Given the human minds are frail, he wouldn't expect more than 8-15% if thise to experience it.

2) human beings are impressionable little things they can't even describe a car accident consistently when they are seated right next to each other much of the time. If they are having these experiences, then details are going to be irrelevant, but there should be certain sets of themes that are universal. They might interpret the little things through their perspective filters but that cannot be said for the major components if what might be happening.

3) if human beings do have a spirit world that they go to, then there are logically some things that should be there. The first and most logical one is that some of  their dead family and friends might show up to greet them. There would most likely be a high incidence if some sort of transitional theme. A worm hole, a door or some sort of tunnel.

If human beings are really immature spirit beings with some sort of spirit parent or teacher on the other side, then there should be a high incidence of a review and some sort of grading during these experiences.

All this would have to be statistically consistent. If when they have NDEs all they see are random elements, then it would have to be just a part of their physical brain.

Also there would have to be an antenna of sorts that connecting them in some sort of resonance  with these other places. If the human being is indeed apart of another dimension as well, then their brains would have to be this antenna and it  should be able to be manipulated by substances, self alteration, accidental injury, or any number of changes to produce some of the experiences that exist in NDEs.  

If all of that is satisfied, a very important regression would need to be calculated. If humans are really being pulled back from this place, Human incidence of NDEs must have a positive corolation with their technological improvements of life saving  technology. Without this it will be hard he believe.

These are just a few predictions that our alien scientist would make being separate from us. Knowing full well that he lives in a physical "flatland" and other dimensions can only be measured by their effects, he is very interested in what affects other dimensions of reality that he knows exist might have on some part of the physical universe. The human mind might be an antenna or even an embryo of a much greater multi dimensional being. If he can just measure these effects and come back  with a  strong statistical likely hood supporting his predictions, then he can win the Planet X Nobel prize. He gets in his spaceship.... An low and behold every prediction he made was completely true. Irrefutable evidence that human beings are indeed some sort of larvi stage of inter dimensional beings.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 23 November 2013 - 11:13 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#66    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

The problem I see with shared aspects of NDE experiences is the same as I see with the same thing in alien abductions, visits of the Virgin or angels, sightings of Sasquatch, ghosts and whatnot.  They share commonalities because it is what people expect, from having heard the story before or from cultural expectations.  Thus, the ghost seen in Vietnam is quite a different fellow from the translucent people dressed in old-fashioned clothes you get in the West.


#67    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 23 November 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

The problem I see with shared aspects of NDE experiences is the same as I see with the same thing in alien abductions, visits of the Virgin or angels, sightings of Sasquatch, ghosts and whatnot.  They share commonalities because it is what people expect, from having heard the story before or from cultural expectations.  Thus, the ghost seen in Vietnam is quite a different fellow from the translucent people dressed in old-fashioned clothes you get in the West.
That's perfectly reasonable

However, NDEs/obes are well documented cross culturally with similar themes even in separated  aboriginal cultures. if its not what it appears to be, then it's a universal part of the Human psyche

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#68    SSilhouette

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 06:08 PM

I tend to like to stick to undeniable facts when examining NDEs for what they are.  People who have died have rewoken to describe events and details happening while they were "out" some distances away even; miles away for some.  These are details that could not have been known to the person awakening but were corroborated by other witnesses at the distant event[s] or details; down to the ridiculously-small detail...

So, there you go.  Random misfiring of the brain cannot explain details recalled from remote places by the patient at the time they were clinically dead.

Edited by SSilhouette, 23 November 2013 - 06:08 PM.


#69    spacecowboy342

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 08:21 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 23 November 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

That's perfectly reasonable

However, NDEs/obes are well documented cross culturally with similar themes even in separated  aboriginal cultures. if its not what it appears to be, then it's a universal part of the Human psyche
This still doesn't rule out that it is an hallucination produced by stress on the brain. Stress brains in similar ways and get similar results


#70    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:35 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 23 November 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

This still doesn't rule out that it is an hallucination produced by stress on the brain. Stress brains in similar ways and get similar results
The point here is that you don't just get stressed braines, you get a common set of themes hinting at an afterlife. Life reviewes, meeting dead loved ones, Somone telling you it's not your time yet. If we are just talking about randomness here why not pink elephants on parade ;)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#71    spacecowboy342

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 23 November 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

The point here is that you don't just get stressed braines, you get a common set of themes hinting at an afterlife. Life reviewes, meeting dead loved ones, Somone telling you it's not your time yet. If we are just talking about randomness here why not pink elephants on parade ;)
Perhaps because people desire to see dead loved ones rather than pink elephants. Wish fulfillment by the sub conscious mind

Edited by spacecowboy342, 23 November 2013 - 09:46 PM.


#72    docyabut2

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

The latest I read in the UK they are going to do some experiments as people seeing items in the room when they are brain dead.They are going to put differant items in the operating rooms, to see if these people are really seeing what they are seeing.

Edited by docyabut2, 24 November 2013 - 12:29 AM.


#73    spacecowboy342

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:34 AM

If the people are brain dead how will they relate what they see? Assuming that a brain dead person can see anything. A pretty tall assumption

Edited by spacecowboy342, 24 November 2013 - 01:35 AM.


#74    Skep B

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 01:47 AM

View PostSSilhouette, on 23 November 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I tend to like to stick to undeniable facts when examining NDEs for what they are.  People who have died have rewoken to describe events and details happening while they were "out" some distances away even; miles away for some.  These are details that could not have been known to the person awakening but were corroborated by other witnesses at the distant event[s] or details; down to the ridiculously-small detail...

So, there you go.  Random misfiring of the brain cannot explain details recalled from remote places by the patient at the time they were clinically dead.


I'd like to see documentation of this happening.

When you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him


#75    White Crane Feather

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 04:02 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 23 November 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Perhaps because people desire to see dead loved ones rather than pink elephants. Wish fulfillment by the sub conscious mind
Perhaps. But that certainly doesn't cover the life review. In fact it's even a clique in common language. "My life flashed before my eyes". Besides I sriously doubt that a dying brain has those kinds of cognitive abilities. Especially ones with no blood flow.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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