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Israel Releases Prisoners (Again)


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#46    Zaphod222

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 21 August 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Palestinians will be the ones who are violent first I agree.
And I hope you're right that they're the ones who start it too, because neither of us want to see Israel as the 'villain'.

If by "Palestinians" you mean muslim Arabs, then yes. Note then plenty of the so-called "Palestinians" are muslim Arab immigrant who come from outside the area of Palestine.

And Israel seen as a villain? You can bet that the Western media who have swallowed the muslim antisemitic propaganda hook line and sinker, will see to that. No matter what.

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#47    Black Red Devil

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 21 August 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Off the top of my head, the only mandate placed in Israel by the UN was "lift the blockade or face sanctions" and "stop building settlements in other nations in order to appropriate land".
Both of those, incidentally, are mandates placed on everyone. As we both agree Israel faces an enemy in Palestine, we just disagree why they're the enemy and what Israel should do about them - I say stop giving them an excuse to attack you and then hide behind the "we're being bullied" defense.

The problem the Israelis have with your type of rationality is that it conflicts with Zionist theology.

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#48    and then

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:14 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 21 August 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

The problem the Israelis have with your type of rationality is that it conflicts with Zionist theology.
You are absolutely correct that some in Israel are virulently opposed to any agreement that surrenders one inch of territory.  But there are a very large number - a majority, who want peace bad enough to try yet again.  And I predict that when this deal gets done, Israelis will  yet again be attacked by Palestinians and the world will YET AGAIN blame Israel for it.  I hope Obama gets hemorrhoids when it happens!  :w00t:

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#49    Black Red Devil

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:25 PM

View Postand then, on 21 August 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

You are absolutely correct that some in Israel are virulently opposed to any agreement that surrenders one inch of territory.  But there are a very large number - a majority, who want peace bad enough to try yet again.  And I predict that when this deal gets done, Israelis will  yet again be attacked by Palestinians and the world will YET AGAIN blame Israel for it.  I hope Obama gets hemorrhoids when it happens!  :w00t:

Not some.  Many.  You can comfortably attribute Zionism as a Nationalist far Right doctrine.  Well guess who has been winning the election polls in Israel lately?  In the last elections Netanyahu's Likud party (right wing)was even prepared to joint venture with Liebermann, an ultra right-wing nationalist who's party agenda, which he created, is all about jewish expansionism.  Passersby once heard him shouting "death to all arabs".

In truth, the Likud party's charter isn't any better,
  • The 1999 Likud charter emphasizes the right of settlement.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[16]
Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.
  • The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[16]

Link

Analysing the above, do you still believe the majority of Israeli's want peace?

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#50    and then

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 02:48 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 21 August 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not some.  Many.  You can comfortably attribute Zionism as a Nationalist far Right doctrine.  Well guess who has been winning the election polls in Israel lately?  In the last elections Netanyahu's Likud party (right wing)was even prepared to joint venture with Liebermann, an ultra right-wing nationalist who's party agenda, which he created, is all about jewish expansionism.  Passersby once heard him shouting "death to all arabs".

In truth, the Likud party's charter isn't any better,
  • The 1999 Likud charter emphasizes the right of settlement.
"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."[16]
Similarly, they claim the Jordan River as the permanent eastern border to Israel and it also claims Jerusalem as belonging to Israel.
  • The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the 1999 Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."[16]

Link

Analysing the above, do you still believe the majority of Israeli's want peace?

Let's see.... 6 million against more than 100 million... yeah...I think they'd prefer peace.  Anything else is just irrational don't you think?  And do you know what?  They have a far superior (in every respect) military than any of their neighbors.  If they really wanted to seize land and be warlike they COULD.  They could literally END the militaries of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and even Egypt.  I wonder why they don't?  Maybe because all they want is just the land they now possess?  Land that they feel is theirs by right?  When Israel finally is pushed into a war by the Palestinians or some rebel group in Syria or Egypt they are going to expand their borders yet again.  All the hell raising and complaining in the world isn't going to matter to them then.  And it could all be avoided if people would just behave rationally...but no, Israel MUST be stopped.  THEY have no right to do the same kinds of things so many other nations in the 20 th century did with abandon.  A very large chunk of the planet is eventually going to be a smoking ruin but Israel is still going to be on that land.

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#51    Black Red Devil

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

View Postand then, on 22 August 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Let's see.... 6 million against more than 100 million... yeah...I think they'd prefer peace.  Anything else is just irrational don't you think?  And do you know what?  They have a far superior (in every respect) military than any of their neighbors.  If they really wanted to seize land and be warlike they COULD.  They could literally END the militaries of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and even Egypt.  I wonder why they don't?  Maybe because all they want is just the land they now possess?  Land that they feel is theirs by right?  When Israel finally is pushed into a war by the Palestinians or some rebel group in Syria or Egypt they are going to expand their borders yet again.  All the hell raising and complaining in the world isn't going to matter to them then.  And it could all be avoided if people would just behave rationally...but no, Israel MUST be stopped.  THEY have no right to do the same kinds of things so many other nations in the 20 th century did with abandon.  A very large chunk of the planet is eventually going to be a smoking ruin but Israel is still going to be on that land.

Which is the land they now possess?  The occupied territories?  You call that peace do you?
The peace process suggests the 1967 borders, the PA is happy with 1967 borders but Netanyahu keeps on expanding and settling.  If they just wanted a land to peacefully live on why do they keep on settling?  You know why?  It's written in clear letters in the Likud charter, similar in expression to Zionist ideology.  Expansion and rejection of a Palestinian State.

Also, you've (probably unwittingly) disclosed the true agenda of how the Zionists intend to expand their borders, which is similar to how the US has been conducting itself to flex it's muscles around the world (with the blessings from it's allies).  Use a false flag to pick a fight and start a war after enough verbal rhetoric has antagonised the situation with both opponents blaming each other of wrongdoings.  Of course, all with the advantage of having a by far superior arsenal over its opponents and the strongest military ally on the planet.

The reason they just can't go out and invade and conquer is so obvious it doesn't even need explaining.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 22 August 2013 - 03:38 AM.

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#52    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 22 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

The peace process suggests the 1967 borders, the PA is happy with 1967 borders
With a caveat - they SAY they're happy with the 67 borders. But as you're happy to involve rhetoric from the government on the Israeli side, keep in mind what the Palestinian government has said about Israel (hint: it rhymes with "Meth to the Yews").

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
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#53    and then

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 22 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:



Which is the land they now possess?  The occupied territories?  You call that peace do you?
The peace process suggests the 1967 borders, the PA is happy with 1967 borders but Netanyahu keeps on expanding and settling.  If they just wanted a land to peacefully live on why do they keep on settling?  You know why?  It's written in clear letters in the Likud charter, similar in expression to Zionist ideology.  Expansion and rejection of a Palestinian State.

Also, you've (probably unwittingly) disclosed the true agenda of how the Zionists intend to expand their borders, which is similar to how the US has been conducting itself to flex it's muscles around the world (with the blessings from it's allies).  Use a false flag to pick a fight and start a war after enough verbal rhetoric has antagonised the situation with both opponents blaming each other of wrongdoings.  Of course, all with the advantage of having a by far superior arsenal over its opponents and the strongest military ally on the planet.

The reason they just can't go out and invade and conquer is so obvious it doesn't even need explaining.
I agree that ever expanding settlements is a stumbling block to peace.  But retreating to borders that leave them on a hair trigger alert status isn't an answer either.  Eventually an outside force will be required to stand guard over both Israelis and Palestinians to try to enforce a "peace".  And that force would HAVE to include Americans.  I don't believe it will solve the problem but it's the only solution that hasn't been tried yet.  Those in power in Israel NEED the parties who represent the settlers and those in power for the Palestinians NEED a continued conflict for them to retain their power.  The bible refers to Jerusalem being a "burdensome" stone in the last days.  What else about that city could account for it's importance in this century except that this prophecy is being fulfilled in our time?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
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#54    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:08 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 22 August 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

With a caveat - they SAY they're happy with the 67 borders. But as you're happy to involve rhetoric from the government on the Israeli side, keep in mind what the Palestinian government has said about Israel (hint: it rhymes with "Meth to the Yews").

That kind of rhetoric comes from Hamas, not the PA. The difference between the two analogies is that Hamas isn't, wasn't and wouldn't have been involved in peace talks while the leader of a possible coalition government in Israel would have.  Liebermann is gone now so it doesn't really matter anymore but it does speak volumes about who is running the show there.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 23 August 2013 - 04:12 AM.

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#55    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:49 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 23 August 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

That kind of rhetoric comes from Hamas, not the PA. The difference between the two analogies is that Hamas isn't, wasn't and wouldn't have been involved in peace talks while the leader of a possible coalition government in Israel would have.  Liebermann is gone now so it doesn't really matter anymore but it does speak volumes about who is running the show there.
So basically, they're aiming for a peace that at least one branch of nutters won't abide by?
I think I'll vaguely mention "The Troubles" and leave it at that.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#56    Zaphod222

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:10 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 22 August 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Which is the land they now possess?  The occupied territories?  You call that peace do you?
The peace process suggests the 1967 borders, the PA is happy with 1967 borders but Netanyahu keeps on expanding and settling.

Firstly, the 1976 borders are not acceptable, because they are based on Jordanian occupation half of Jerusalem, separating the city with a Berlin wall and preventing the Jews from accessing their most holy sites. They would also render Israel indefensible.

Secondly, the PA is not even happy with that! In addition to the 1967 borders, they demand their capital in Jerusalem, plus the complete ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the West Bank (including those who lived there before Israel was founded), plus the so-called "right of return" of several million so-called "refugees", which would mean the end of the state of Israel. (Which is of course the goal of both Fatah and Hamas).

Fact is, in the Oslo talks, Arafat was offered land swaps, which would have given him about 98% of the West Bank in a contiguous block, enough to make a state if he wanted to, while giving Israel defensible borders. Guess what? He refused and send his muslim Arabs on an "intifada".

Get your facts right, before making such false claims.

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#57    Zaphod222

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:13 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 23 August 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

So basically, they're aiming for a peace that at least one branch of nutters won't abide by?
I think I'll vaguely mention "The Troubles" and leave it at that.

Plus, Hamas is also in the West Bank. And who says they won´t take over there too, like they did in Gazah.
The whole idea of "peace" talks with people who only interested in your destruction, not peace, is ridiculous.
If either the PLO or Hamas wanted "peace" as we understand it, they could have had that ages ago.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#58    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:04 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 23 August 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

So basically, they're aiming for a peace that at least one branch of nutters won't abide by?
I think I'll vaguely mention "The Troubles" and leave it at that.

While Israel is doing "what" for peace?  Lets see,

1) building settlements condemned by the international community and against all agreed peace talk agreements,
2) illegally blockading a foreign territory which is against international law and condemned by the international community,
3) illegally building a barrier in the west bank, many of it on Palestinian territory.  Also against international law (the UN called it "an unlawful act of annexation" in a 2004 report two years after they started building it) .  Furthermore, the fence is also cutting off access to Palestinian villages.
4) the discrimination and blockade against the people in Gaza created a humanitarian crisis, reported and condemned by most Health Organisations in the world, including the UN.

Also lets not forget that as of 2013, 132 of the 193 UN members have recognised the right of existence to a Palestinian State, as a sovereign state.  Israel is illegally breaching international law against a foreign state recognised by the majority worldwide.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

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#59    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:38 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 23 August 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Firstly, the 1976 borders are not acceptable, because they are based on Jordanian occupation half of Jerusalem, separating the city with a Berlin wall and preventing the Jews from accessing their most holy sites. They would also render Israel indefensible.

Secondly, the PA is not even happy with that! In addition to the 1967 borders, they demand their capital in Jerusalem, plus the complete ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the West Bank (including those who lived there before Israel was founded), plus the so-called "right of return" of several million so-called "refugees", which would mean the end of the state of Israel. (Which is of course the goal of both Fatah and Hamas).

Fact is, in the Oslo talks, Arafat was offered land swaps, which would have given him about 98% of the West Bank in a contiguous block, enough to make a state if he wanted to, while giving Israel defensible borders. Guess what? He refused and send his muslim Arabs on an "intifada".

Get your facts right, before making such false claims.

"Jordanian occupation?, Berlin Wall?  They would render Israel indefensible?"  Do you even know what you're talking about?  The only wall built is the one built by Israeli's, on Palestinian territory.  If you're talking about the green line, it was just an imaginary line, no bricks and cement.
The West Bank is 90% occupied by Arabs, once you take the settlements out.  Wow, some occupation...  See below proposal.

Posted Image

So, let's rationalise.  A country can occupy territory in a bordering country because it allows its position to become "more defensible".  Yep, that makes sense to me.

Now, lets talk about the Right of return.  Answer me this.  Why is a Jew that lives in the US, that has never been or had any connections to the State of Israel, allowed to become an Israeli citizen, whilst Arab refugees from such territories aren't allowed back?

Facts!!??  In your dictionary, the word fact has another meaning from anybody else, with added descriptions such as biased, twisted, one-sided view, anti-arab.  

I'll tell you a secret buddy, all indications show that Israel has never been serious about peace talks and finding a solution.  They've been chomping up territory by the minute since day one.  It's called Zionism and they've NEVER, EVER been serious about sharing "the God given land of Israel".  Although I do agree with you on one point, Arafat was an idiot.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 23 August 2013 - 08:41 AM.

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#60    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 23 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Plus, Hamas is also in the West Bank. And who says they won´t take over there too, like they did in Gazah.
The whole idea of "peace" talks with people who only interested in your destruction, not peace, is ridiculous.
If either the PLO or Hamas wanted "peace" as we understand it, they could have had that ages ago.

So what's your fascist solution?  Ethnic cleansing, total eradication?  They have one of the most modern arsenals in the world thanks to the aid and support from the US.  I'm sure it wouldn't take too long to eradicate all the Arab civilian population from Gaza and the West Bank.  If all fails, the still have nukes they could drop on them.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde




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