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Israel Releases Prisoners (Again)


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#61    and then

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 23 August 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:



So what's your fascist solution?  Ethnic cleansing, total eradication?  They have one of the most modern arsenals in the world thanks to the aid and support from the US.  I'm sure it wouldn't take too long to eradicate all the Arab civilian population from Gaza and the West Bank.  If all fails, the still have nukes they could drop on them.
What of the other side of your logic?  Are the Israelis to just keep bending to the demands of an enemy who never stops trying to kill them?  Would you continue to keep reaching out your hand to someone who wanted to knock your teeth down your throat, THEN kill your wife and kids?

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#62    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:44 AM

View Postand then, on 23 August 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

What of the other side of your logic?  Are the Israelis to just keep bending to the demands of an enemy who never stops trying to kill them?  Would you continue to keep reaching out your hand to someone who wanted to knock your teeth down your throat, THEN kill your wife and kids?

Please advise what demands have the Israelis bent to thus far?

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:05 PM

Vacating Gaza.  Vacating southern Lebanon.  Releasing hundreds of prisoners as gestures of "goodwill".  The Palestinians make known publicly and daily that their goal is the eradication of the Jewish state.  Have done for decades.  Do you actually deny this?  Leaving aside (for just a moment) the sins of Israel, perhaps you can explain how one goes about acceding to the demands of someone who wants nothing less than your death?  Those who support the Hamas, Fatah or PFLP cannot use a fig leaf of Israeli intransigence to negotiate when their enemies are actively talking of, planning and trying to make good on death threats.  Of course rational people such as yourself fully understand the end game - you just won't admit it.  Why is that?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#64    Leonardo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postand then, on 14 August 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Even if that were true - and of course I dispute it - in every past negotiation it has always fallen to Israel to be the one who makes the gesture.

Perhaps because, apart  from attempting to control the splinter groups carrying out rocket attacks, the Palestinians actually have very little with which to make any gestures - Israel having taken nearly everything from them?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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#65    and then

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 23 August 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:



Perhaps because, apart  from attempting to control the splinter groups carrying out rocket attacks, the Palestinians actually have very little with which to make any gestures - Israel having taken nearly everything from them?
Sorry, doesn't wash.  The greatest concession they can make and the one the Israelis are desperate for is simple recognition of their right to exist in the land as a state of essentially Jewish character.  This is COMPLETELY within their power to give yet they steadfastly refuse it.  Until they accept the reality of a state for the Jewish people there can never be real peace.  The fact that they have nothing is more a reflection of the dissipation that unbridled hate can bring to a people.  They do not build because they are too intent on destroying.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#66    Leonardo

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:04 PM

View Postand then, on 23 August 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Sorry, doesn't wash.  The greatest concession they can make and the one the Israelis are desperate for is simple recognition of their right to exist in the land as a state of essentially Jewish character.

Are you sure this is what the State of Israel is actually asking for?

Or are they asking for Palestinian recognition of the State of Israel - i.e. the state being all the land they currently occupy, which would be a sneaky way of legitimising their claim to the West Bank, etc. without actually entering into any negotiations at all.

Edited by Leonardo, 23 August 2013 - 01:05 PM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#67    Black Red Devil

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:55 PM

View Postand then, on 23 August 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Vacating Gaza.  Vacating southern Lebanon.  Releasing hundreds of prisoners as gestures of "goodwill".  The Palestinians make known publicly and daily that their goal is the eradication of the Jewish state.  Have done for decades.  Do you actually deny this?  Leaving aside (for just a moment) the sins of Israel, perhaps you can explain how one goes about acceding to the demands of someone who wants nothing less than your death?  Those who support the Hamas, Fatah or PFLP cannot use a fig leaf of Israeli intransigence to negotiate when their enemies are actively talking of, planning and trying to make good on death threats.  Of course rational people such as yourself fully understand the end game - you just won't admit it.  Why is that?

Quote

AREA C FAST FACTS

Over 60 percent of the West Bank is considered Area C, where Israel retains extensive control, including
over security, planning and zoning.

An estimated 150,000 Palestinians live in Area C, including 27,500 Bedouin and other herders.

More than 20% of communities in Area C have extremely limited access to health services.

Water consumption dips to 20 litres/capita/day (l/c/d) in communities without water infrastructure, one
fifth of the World Health Organisation’s recommendation.

Communities depending on tankered water pay up to 400% more for every liter than those connected to
the water network.

70% of Area C is off-limits to Palestinian construction; 29% is heavily restricted.

Less than 1% of Area C has been planned for Palestinian development by the Israeli Civil Administration.

560 Palestinian-owned structures, including 200 residential structures and 46 rainwater collection cisterns
and pools, were demolished by the Israeli authorities in 2011.

1,006 people, including 565 children, lost their homes in 2011, over twice as many in 2010.

Over 3,000 demolition orders are outstanding, including 18 targeting schools.

The planned expansion area of the around 135 Israeli settlements in Area C is 9 times larger than their
built-up area. (B’Tselem).

Approximately 300,000 settlers currently live in Area C.


Link

60% of the West Bank is basically off limits to the Palestinians.  The West bank has 5,640 square meters of land while Gaza has 360 square meters.  Most Israeli settlements are in Area C which basically means they intend to build on close to 3,640 square meters of Palestinian land in the West Bank.  Currently their settlements spread across 10-15% of Area C.  
Gaza doesn't sound like a good bargain after all does it?  

Also, were you aware that Israel has 16 settlements in Gaza as well?  Were you aware there were 33 settlements in the Golan Hts?

Other facts:

Quote






BETWEEN 2000 AND 2007:
  • 1,624 Palestinians requested building permits, only 91 were granted.
  • 18,472 Jewish settlement units were permitted and built.
  • 4450 Palestinian homes were demolished.
  • From 1967 through 1990 - 11, 286 Palestinian homes were demolished*
  • From 1990 through 1999 - 1,628 Palestinian homes were demolished*
  • From 2000 through 2009 - 10,465 Palestinian and 30 Jewish homes were demolished
*No data on Jewish homes demolished

Link

Look at the restrictions and oppression the Palestinians are subject to in the West Bank.

Quote

Divisions

Area A

Area A (full civil and security control by the Palestinian Authority): circa 3% of the West Bank, exclusive East-Jerusalem (first phase, 1995).[1][2] In 2011: 18%.[3][4] This area includes all Palestinian cities and their surrounding areas, with no Israeli settlements. Entry into this area is forbidden by Israeli law to all Israeli citizens.[citation needed] The Israel Defense Forces maintain no presence, but sometimes conducts raids to arrest suspected militants.
Area B

Area B (Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control): circa 25% (first phase, 1995).[1][2] In 2011: 21%.[3][4] Includes areas of many Palestinian towns and villages and areas, with no Israeli settlements.
Area C

Area C (full Israeli civil and security control): circa 72% (first phase, 1995),[1][2] in 2011: 61%.[3][4] It was intended to be handed back to Palestinians by the end of the 1990s, but the transfer did not take place, given failed statehood talks and a Palestinian uprising.[5] These areas include all Israeli settlements (cities, towns, and villages), nearby land, most roadways that connected the settlements (and which are exclusively for Israeli use) as well as areas denominated as strategic and described as "security zones."[3] There were 1,000 Israeli settlers living in Area C in 1972. By 1993, their population had increased to 110,000. As of 2012 they number more than 300,000 – as against 150,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are Bedouin and farmers, constituting 5% of the Palestinian population on 60% of the land, who are cut off from services available to other Palestinians in Areas A and B. According to a 2013 EU report, Israeli policies in the area have undermined the Palestinian presence there, with a deterioration in basic services such as water supplies, education and shelter. Nearly 70% of the Palestinian villages are not connected to the water network that serves settlers, which accounts for the fact that Palestinians in the zone use only a quarter to a third of the pro capita consumption of settlers.[5][6]

Link

Who is eradicating who AT?

Edited by Black Red Devil, 24 August 2013 - 12:55 AM.

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#68    and then

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 23 August 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:



[/size][/font]

Link

60% of the West Bank is basically off limits to the Palestinians.  The West bank has 5,640 square meters of land while Gaza has 360 square meters.  Most Israeli settlements are in Area C which basically means they intend to build on close to 3,640 square meters of Palestinian land in the West Bank.  Currently their settlements spread across 10-15% of Area C.  
Gaza doesn't sound like a good bargain after all does it?  

Also, were you aware that Israel has 16 settlements in Gaza as well?  Were you aware there were 33 settlements in the Golan Hts?

Other facts:

[font=sans-serif][size=4]

Link

Look at the restrictions and oppression the Palestinians are subject to in the West Bank.



Link

Who is eradicating who AT?
In what way does ANY of that refute what I have said about Israel being recognized as a Jewish state?  If the Palestinians agreed to this - EVEN if they also demanded that the area of the west bank be much reduced and returned to the Palestinians, then a deal might be made.  The argument keeps being made about the total AREA of land controlled by Israel and my contention is that NO AMOUNT of Palestine is small enough for the Palestinians to agree to since their goal is the eradication of the state of Israel.  The argument is endless.  The argument from Israel's pov is about recognition of a JEWISH state.  It was the same in 47 as it is today.  The Palis have never - WILL NEVER agree to this regardless the size or amount of land and so long as this is true there will never be a chance for real peace - why is this so difficult for you to understand?  IF the Palestinian leadership could make that statement and stand by it while demanding say, 95% of the "west bank" (Judea and Samaria) then they would corner Israel into coming to the table and having to make REAL, PAINFUL concessions.  The government of Israel would probably fall and a new, center left government would have to be installed to accomplish peace BUT it would be doable I think.  Ultimately I have every confidence that the Palestinians would STILL attack Israel and cause a conflagration to erupt because they CANNOT  accept the Jewish state in ANY SIZE piece of land in Palestine - the hatred of the Jews simply runs too deep.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#69    Black Red Devil

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 04:58 AM

View Postand then, on 24 August 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

In what way does ANY of that refute what I have said about Israel being recognized as a Jewish state?  If the Palestinians agreed to this - EVEN if they also demanded that the area of the west bank be much reduced and returned to the Palestinians, then a deal might be made.  The argument keeps being made about the total AREA of land controlled by Israel and my contention is that NO AMOUNT of Palestine is small enough for the Palestinians to agree to since their goal is the eradication of the state of Israel.  The argument is endless.  The argument from Israel's pov is about recognition of a JEWISH state.  It was the same in 47 as it is today.  The Palis have never - WILL NEVER agree to this regardless the size or amount of land and so long as this is true there will never be a chance for real peace - why is this so difficult for you to understand?  IF the Palestinian leadership could make that statement and stand by it while demanding say, 95% of the "west bank" (Judea and Samaria) then they would corner Israel into coming to the table and having to make REAL, PAINFUL concessions.  The government of Israel would probably fall and a new, center left government would have to be installed to accomplish peace BUT it would be doable I think.  Ultimately I have every confidence that the Palestinians would STILL attack Israel and cause a conflagration to erupt because they CANNOT  accept the Jewish state in ANY SIZE piece of land in Palestine - the hatred of the Jews simply runs too deep.

The first link in my previous post didn't work so here it is again. Although the fact sheet from the UN is from 2011 it paints a good picture of the "takeover" of the West Bank by the Israeli's.  If anything, the situation in the last two years has gotten worst for the Palestinians.

In the map of the West Bank (on page 2), you can see the large, strategic positioning of Area C (in darker blue the military installations all facing Jordan), which has basically become off limits for Palestinians and the Israeli settlements is larger in population than the Arabs.

And you truly believe that all it's going to take is for the Palestinians to agree to a Jewish State and they'll get the West Bank and East Jerusalem all for themselves?  LOL.  Netanyahu has already said no way they're sharing Jerusalem and the map shows clear evidence of the persistent eradication of land in the West Bank.

Israel isn't interested in a one or two state solution.  Peace solutions would mean giving away too much and why should they when the world community does nothing about it?
So how about calling it as it, let's stop the hypocritical BS of blaming the Palestinians while portraying Israel as the nice guys and victims.  Not all people are stupid enough to suck in the deceitful media propaganda machine of personalities such as Bill O'Reilly etc.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 24 August 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:



The first link in my previous post didn't work so here it is again. Although the fact sheet from the UN is from 2011 it paints a good picture of the "takeover" of the West Bank by the Israeli's.  If anything, the situation in the last two years has gotten worst for the Palestinians.

In the map of the West Bank (on page 2), you can see the large, strategic positioning of Area C (in darker blue the military installations all facing Jordan), which has basically become off limits for Palestinians and the Israeli settlements is larger in population than the Arabs.

And you truly believe that all it's going to take is for the Palestinians to agree to a Jewish State and they'll get the West Bank and East Jerusalem all for themselves?  LOL.  Netanyahu has already said no way they're sharing Jerusalem and the map shows clear evidence of the persistent eradication of land in the West Bank.

Israel isn't interested in a one or two state solution.  Peace solutions would mean giving away too much and why should they when the world community does nothing about it?
So how about calling it as it, let's stop the hypocritical BS of blaming the Palestinians while portraying Israel as the nice guys and victims.  Not all people are stupid enough to suck in the deceitful media propaganda machine of personalities such as Bill O'Reilly etc.
The level of intelligence of any person doesn't change the facts surrounding this situation.  You are ardently anti Israel (Zionist) and feel that anything it takes to depose them is acceptable.  I assume you are neither Jewish nor Palestinian and have no personal ties to the region.  So it begs the question - why do you get so incensed about it?  Why does everyone world wide who is agitated about the situation in Israel spend time loudly defaming the Israeli government when just a few miles away thousands are dying?  Atrocities of staggering proportions are happening all over the world and the UN spends more time berating Israeli policy than in trying to comfort the victims or punish the aggressors in any of those conflicts - WHY?  This is a sincere question to you.  Have you ever wondered why you get so upset about this situation?  It is part of my faith to believe that Israel was given this land and that ultimately they will possess it all.  Not without great sacrifice and ultimately - repentance - but they WILL have it all at some point.  I don't think of the modern state of Israel as being full of saints.  But I am able to see them as being just as human as you or myself.  I feel the same about the Palestinians but I also fail to understand the depth of hate it takes to continue to war - both Jew and Palestinian - for so long and never seem to be able to come to terms with the hate.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#71    Leonardo

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 02:11 PM

View Postand then, on 24 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

It is part of my faith to believe that Israel was given this land and that ultimately they will possess it all.

And, with all due respect to you and your faith, therein lies the problem. What grants bronze-age religious scripture written over 2,000 years ago greater validity in this dispute than, for example, a Partition Plan for the territories in question drawn up only 65 years ago?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#72    Black Red Devil

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 12:08 AM

View Postand then, on 24 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

The level of intelligence of any person doesn't change the facts surrounding this situation.  You are ardently anti Israel (Zionist) and feel that anything it takes to depose them is acceptable.  I assume you are neither Jewish nor Palestinian and have no personal ties to the region.  So it begs the question - why do you get so incensed about it?  Why does everyone world wide who is agitated about the situation in Israel spend time loudly defaming the Israeli government when just a few miles away thousands are dying?  Atrocities of staggering proportions are happening all over the world and the UN spends more time berating Israeli policy than in trying to comfort the victims or punish the aggressors in any of those conflicts - WHY?  This is a sincere question to you.  Have you ever wondered why you get so upset about this situation?  It is part of my faith to believe that Israel was given this land and that ultimately they will possess it all.  Not without great sacrifice and ultimately - repentance - but they WILL have it all at some point.  I don't think of the modern state of Israel as being full of saints.  But I am able to see them as being just as human as you or myself.  I feel the same about the Palestinians but I also fail to understand the depth of hate it takes to continue to war - both Jew and Palestinian - for so long and never seem to be able to come to terms with the hate.

We live in a world community where the acts of some affect the lives of others who may be living on the other side of the planet.  Stock markets crash and affect the global financial situation in countries worldwide, a terrorist attack in an airport affects security around the world, impoverished countries suffering famine and hunger are aided by populations living on the other side of the planet.
Communication brings information everywhere these days thanks to news coverage and internet, so when you see humanitarian tragedies in the Middle East and Africa for example, it raises concerns for people living in Australia. Why wouldn't it, after all we're made up of the same DNA?

By your reasoning we wouldn't have Human Rights Groups or global institutions such as the UN.  If these organisations are berating Israel so much, do you think there might be a reason for it or do you truly believe the whole world has nothing else to do than think about ways to punish the Jews?  LOL

As for me, I regard the conduct and discrimination of Israel against the Palestinians and, despite this, the privileged treatment they receive from the west, the nexus point that spurred on Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and North Africa and the reason we have so many wars and uprises there.  If you think this hasn't affected all people around the globe...well think again.

To the contrary to what you say, I don't get agitated or upset. I'm not in a position to be a political decision maker therefore can only have an impact on the situation with a few written lines on a forum or through contributions.

As I've explained to you before, there are plenty of threads about Egypt, Syria....in the Middle East section.  It's not all about Israel.  The difference with threads on Israel is that there are people like yourself who want to defend the illogical and make out that Israel is the persecuted victim while they are eradicating a population in front of everyone's eyes.

EDITED TO ADD.

Since you brought me personally into this argument, I'll make this clear to you once and for all so there is no misinterpretations in the future.  I'm not against the existence of the State of Israel and don't dislike Jews.  I do regard Zionism as a religious and political doctrine that is causing most of the evil there, together with Islamic fundamentalism.  For what it matters, I don't believe in a Jewish State or Islamic States because I believe in Secularism and, although Catholic by birth, I dislike all religions which I regard as antiquated doctrines that don't belong in the 21st century.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 25 August 2013 - 12:18 AM.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:11 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 25 August 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

We live in a world community where the acts of some affect the lives of others who may be living on the other side of the planet.  Stock markets crash and affect the global financial situation in countries worldwide, a terrorist attack in an airport affects security around the world, impoverished countries suffering famine and hunger are aided by populations living on the other side of the planet.
Communication brings information everywhere these days thanks to news coverage and internet, so when you see humanitarian tragedies in the Middle East and Africa for example, it raises concerns for people living in Australia. Why wouldn't it, after all we're made up of the same DNA?

By your reasoning we wouldn't have Human Rights Groups or global institutions such as the UN.  If these organisations are berating Israel so much, do you think there might be a reason for it or do you truly believe the whole world has nothing else to do than think about ways to punish the Jews?  LOL

As for me, I regard the conduct and discrimination of Israel against the Palestinians and, despite this, the privileged treatment they receive from the west, the nexus point that spurred on Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and North Africa and the reason we have so many wars and uprises there.  If you think this hasn't affected all people around the globe...well think again.

To the contrary to what you say, I don't get agitated or upset. I'm not in a position to be a political decision maker therefore can only have an impact on the situation with a few written lines on a forum or through contributions.

As I've explained to you before, there are plenty of threads about Egypt, Syria....in the Middle East section.  It's not all about Israel.  The difference with threads on Israel is that there are people like yourself who want to defend the illogical and make out that Israel is the persecuted victim while they are eradicating a population in front of everyone's eyes.

EDITED TO ADD.

Since you brought me personally into this argument, I'll make this clear to you once and for all so there is no misinterpretations in the future.  I'm not against the existence of the State of Israel and don't dislike Jews.  I do regard Zionism as a religious and political doctrine that is causing most of the evil there, together with Islamic fundamentalism.  For what it matters, I don't believe in a Jewish State or Islamic States because I believe in Secularism and, although Catholic by birth, I dislike all religions which I regard as antiquated doctrines that don't belong in the 21st century.
A million (at the very greatest)people were moved from their land at the time of the partition and the '67 war.  About 5 million want to return.  If they are being eradicated then someone is doing a very poor job of it.  It's just drone like talking points being repeated.  The Palestinians are not being eradicated.  They are being pushed off of land because some Jews are taking advantage of the intransigence of the Palestinian leadership to do a deal.  Accepting the right of Jews to live in a land of essentially Jewish character harms no one.  If you think it isn't something that goes on elsewhere then try going to Mecca during the Haj.  The uprisings and turmoil in the M.E. are in fact greatly though not exclusively due to Israel's existence.  The great war the world is about to experience can be said to be caused by their existence as well, if one can say they are to blame for wanting to live and have a nation of their own.  Regardless your faith or lack thereof you will see Israel win their fight to survive and it will be a remarkable and should be an instructive thing to you when it happens.  But I doubt any lesson will be taken except that fate seems unfair and against your worldview.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.




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