Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Erroneous scientific studies: Religious peopl


  • Please log in to reply
37 replies to this topic

#16    ShadowSot

ShadowSot

    Stinky Cheese

  • Member
  • 6,874 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Oops.

Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:57 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 23 August 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

I did not ready the specifics of the study, but haveing a larger sample size of one group statistically will drift the average scores to the center of a bell curve, while the other especially atheists will have larger proportion of higher education. I don't need a study to say that on average atheists will score higher on intelligence tests. Most atheists come to atheism through education.

Religionists and atheists should note that this does not mean there are more intelligent atheists than religionists. The bulk of of religionists merely pull the curve back to an average. Even a random sampling of the same number of participants in each group would still result in a greater likely hood of pulling from the center of the curve of the larger group. Now with that said most people come to atheism by questioning things.. I have no problem with seeing the curve leaning forward on the atheist side.

I would like a study comparinging those who consider themselves spiritual but not religious with atheist. That would be interesting. Most people that are very solid in their spiritual but none religious beliefs went through an atheism phase.
Mostly what I said, and I agree. Though since I already mentioned personal experience, my counter experience is most atheist drifted to atheism from spiritual beliefs.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#17    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 25,922 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... One Mippippi, two Mippippi, three Mippipi....

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:07 AM

In Australia, 3-out-of-4 adults who regularly attend church have a university degree (or are currently studying for a degree). This is worth noting because as a whole, only 1-out-of-4 Australian adults have university education. So if you meet a church-going Australian they are three times more likely to have university education than a randomly selected Australian.

Note- this figure does NOT imply 75% of Christian adults are university educated. 60% of Australians identify as Christian, but only 2% of the population regularly attends church. The figure is about church attendees. Maybe university graduates enjoy reading and studying and so a Christian who's been to university might find studying the Bible and listening to the lecturer (aka, the preacher) more appealing than a person who can't stand reading.

Still, church attendance is an important aspect to a Christian life, and the stats in Australia are pretty interesting in that vein.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 August 2013 - 07:08 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#18    willowdreams

willowdreams

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 961 posts
  • Joined:12 Jun 2009
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

  • Never let the facts get in the way of the truth- heard during an episode of 'Lie to Me' by Dr. Cal Lightman

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:12 AM

(as usual, I am tying on a small netbook and just refuse out of pure stuborness to go back and correct spelling and grammar errors.. one day I will get out of the poor house and be able to afford a laptop that is bigger and easier to use)

Yanno, my take on the 'smarts' of a person when it comes to religion v/s atheism  is way different then everyone elses.

For me it has to do with following.

Many Christians out there 'follow' what they are TOLD by those the percieve as being in charge within their faith.

I work for a publishing company, I remember when it came out that Dumbledor was 'Gay' in Harry Potter, and of course there were outcries of 'witchery' in the book.

I would get in a habit of saying 'have you read at least the first book or any one of the books', and I would say that 10 times out fo 10, those people calling to condemn the books told me 'no'. They were 'told' by their paster, or they were 'told' by close friends who are christians, or the 'read' in their church news letter, or they 'heard on tv'..

And I promise you, the majority then would claim 'I am a christian and I do not want my children exposed to such evil'. (or thereabouts)

They are not those I would consider 'intellegent'. They are ignorant people who follow, and are seemingly unable to actually think enough for themselves to actually come up with the courage to read ONE of the books to see if it teaches magic to the children (which it did not) or really showed Dumbledor as Gay (which it did not). Homosexuality was never even IN the books that one could see.

You see this in other things as well, I just gave the one that I remember personally as I experienced and dealt with some of these people.

Atheist can be the same as well. Well Dawkins says.. Hitchens said.. Sagan said.. et et et.

I may say that I admire Sagan, Asimov, Neil Degrasse Tyson, et et, inspired me to think beyond the bounderies others placed around me, but I am not an atheist BECAUSE of them, I am an atheist because of my own studies, my own 'feelings' inside me that we call 'instinct' or 'gut feelings'.

Want to know something silly and perhaps childish? Doctor Who. I love that show, really seriously I do.. and sometimes when I watch it and they are dealing with missing planets.. or black holes, and I actually look at the graphics of it, then I go through you tube and look at nasa vids, or I look up at the sky..  the UNIVERSE.. planets, stars, black holes, suns.. cosmic storms and the birth of stars in our solar system..

THEY made me atheist more than any human ever could have. I do not watch as much tv as many would assume when you know the shows I love, but the shows I love are often themed around 'space'. or futuristic things, science fiction.

ALL those things cause me to feel deep deep in the very core of my mind that I am atheist. And instead of fear, I feel a sense of 'wonder', a feeling lf lust for more knowledge where I do not need to be confined in a box of teachings from an old book written by to many people and retranslated to many times to where even the traditions of the people can and is taken out of context.

So for me, No one is smarter then the other just because they have a belief or non belief.

But in my mind, those who have minds that are confined in a box and aims their thoughts and beliefs around what their 'leader' says.. (and yes, even among the atheist.. they speak of dawkins and others almost as reverent and true to form as christians will speak of the words of jesus or some preacher).. are the ones who show less smarts then the ones who literally fly the worlds within earth and outside of earth... forming their own opinions and point of views.

Someone can inspire me and cause me to look in a direction, but I am the only one who can open my eyes and see something there.

Posted Image


#19    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:26 AM

Have they even defined the terms "religious", "atheist", and "intelligence"? All of them are debatable and open to manipulation.

Here in Japan, I note that most of followers of the homicidal "Aum Shinrikyo" religion (which is now sensibly banned) were intellectuals with high degrees from good universities.

Anecdotal evidence of course, but still..... since I could have been on the train they gassed, it is kind of personal.

High IQ in one area does not protect you from blithering stupidity in another, alas.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#20    ShadowSot

ShadowSot

    Stinky Cheese

  • Member
  • 6,874 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Oops.

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:34 AM

Edit db

Edited by ShadowSot, 23 August 2013 - 07:35 AM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#21    ShadowSot

ShadowSot

    Stinky Cheese

  • Member
  • 6,874 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Oops.

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:34 AM

Well, you coukd read the study where they go into how they defined intelligence. Or an earlier post where I indicated part of what they looked at was analytical and logical thinking, not so much university degrees. But if you woukd rather call it a waste of grant money (when as far as I can tell little to no grant money went into it) or speculate about how the determine jntelligence when they lay it out in the study (found it on scribd, I'd link it but can't post a link, it comes up easy on search.) Then I really can't see the point of trying to discuss the study with you.
Edit:  spelling

Edited by ShadowSot, 23 August 2013 - 07:41 AM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#22    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:47 AM

Is that peer reviewed study? I doubt Newton was less intelligent.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 23 August 2013 - 08:03 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#23    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

How do they define atheism? E.g. Buddhism is a religion that does not believe in a god. So would a Buddhist count as a religionist or an atheist?

Man made Global Warming is a set of irrational beliefs which acts as a religion and is argued by the believers like religion (e.g. the disbelievers are attacked with religious fervor). Would that count as religion in the study or not?

I could go on...

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#24    Big Bad Voodoo

Big Bad Voodoo

    High priest of Darwinism

  • Member
  • 9,582 posts
  • Joined:15 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 23 August 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

How do they define atheism? E.g. Buddhism is a religion that does not believe in a god. So would a Buddhist count as a religionist or an atheist?

Man made Global Warming is a set of irrational beliefs which acts as a religion and is argued by the believers like religion (e.g. the disbelievers are attacked with religious fervor). Would that count as religion in the study or not?

I could go on...

Religion does not need God.

Big Bad Voodoo

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#25    ShadowSot

ShadowSot

    Stinky Cheese

  • Member
  • 6,874 posts
  • Joined:27 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Oops.

Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:30 PM

Quote

How do they define atheism? E.g. Buddhism is a religion that does not believe in a god. So would a Buddhist count as a religionist or an atheist?

People who identified as atheist. Pretty simple. You could, again, actually read the study instead of trying to critic a strawman but I can see you're not interested.

Quote

Man made Global Warming is a set of irrational beliefs which acts as a religion and is argued by the believers like religion (e.g. the disbelievers are attacked with religious fervor). Would that count as religion in the study or not?
Climate change is as supported as evolution in terms of scientific acceptance, the only people who say otherwise are either paid by companies that'd be directly impacted if Climate change was true, religious fundamentalists, and political parties. The last two, it should be noted, are the same parties that deny evolution as a science most often.
Really, the denial of the facts is more a religion by your definition than the science itself.

Quote

I could go on...

I'm sure you can, however as it's clear your trying for rhetoric and non-sequitars instead of facts, good day to you.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#26    StarMountainKid

StarMountainKid

    Cheese

  • Member
  • 4,097 posts
  • Joined:17 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Star Mountain, Corporate States of America

  • We have problems because we stray from what is innocent and pure.

Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

This is a dangerous subject to get into., as ranking people by some measure of their intelligence is repugnant to me.

I think this study says more about people in general than whether they choose athiesm over religion. Is it a sign of greater intelligence to think for yoursef or to accept what you are told, for instance? I'm not sure this is the case.

As some studies demonstrate, intelligence is mainly inherited. If thiis is true, then is it more likely that a person with lower than average intelligence would find it easier to accept what that person is told than to make this decision for themself independantly?

I'm not sure that this is the case, as there are many factors besides intelligence that may cause someone to choose atheism over religion, or religion over athiesm. I don't think choosing one or the other has much to do with someone's intelligence, it's a complex issue that doesn't depend on only one aspect of a person's personality.

This reminds me of the controversial book, "The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life", by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, published in1994. The controversial part was the ranking of intelligence by race.

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
My credentials: http://www.unexplain...ic=87935&st=225

#27    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:48 PM

Going from personal experience, most Christians are thicker than atheists on forums.


#28    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,355 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 24 August 2013 - 12:35 AM

View PostShadowSot, on 23 August 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Just as I try to warn my atheist friends, I'd also try to caution you, personal experience can not be generalised out to an entire population. Numerous studies have shown that atheists score higher in intelligence on average. This is just the latest one, and we see the religious trying to counter this with a variety of hand waving.
Now, in my opinion this has more to do with numbers. There are far more religious people than atheists, and therefore you have a smaller sample sized compared to the religious.
Take into account that unlike the general population, scientists and intellectuals are more likely to be non-religious (or non-conventionally religious, in the sense their religious beliefs, no matter what label they claim, do not match the general dogma among the lay members or of it's church.

Looking at the smaller sample size and the higher proportion of intellectuals, when in comparison to the public, it's not a suprise that atheists tend to have higher intelligence than religious people.

Now, we can argue about personal experiences, and if you want I can provide far more personal experience with highly educated atheists, and poorly educated theists, but I can also point to very stupid atheists and intelligent theists. (Admittedly my bias is far more to one than the other.)
And with this we have to remember again, Christians make up something like 73% of the overall population of the US, while atheists generally bounce around 1-3%, depending on how the numbers are represented. The actual population is probably higher, but gets confused depending on how they exactly identify.

So simply due to numbers, you are going to encounter more theists than atheists in any particular field of study up to a certain level of education, where the numbers sharply decline on the religious side and increase on the atheist side.

In my own experience, those very-well educated and intelligent theists were barely religious.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#29    StarMountainKid

StarMountainKid

    Cheese

  • Member
  • 4,097 posts
  • Joined:17 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Star Mountain, Corporate States of America

  • We have problems because we stray from what is innocent and pure.

Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:36 AM

Is there a difference between intellect and intelligence? Intellect being logical thought, Intelligence being a sane and healthy intellectual and emotional response to one's self and one's environment. I think one's intellectual prowess has little to do with appropriate and moral behavior.

This is one reason categorizing people by IQ-type intelligence is not a productive method for judging people's worth in society. What is important is how people behave, whether they are atheists or religious.

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
My credentials: http://www.unexplain...ic=87935&st=225

#30    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

Aus Der Box Skeptisch

    Unknown title error

  • Member
  • 2,920 posts
  • Joined:19 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:arizona (originally the wisconsin/minnesota area eh!)

  • Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.

Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:58 AM

"Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it'll go its entire life thinking its an idiot"

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 24 August 2013 - 02:00 AM.

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users