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Religion, politics and cultural brainwashing


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

Politics and religion, they both burn deep and cause division and harm to others.  Neither can be gotten rid of.  When religion and the state get together, well it only gets worse.  For me it is about the will to power, so when religion gets power, as the Christian church did in the 3rd century, well the high post attracted different sorts of people, not good people.

I will fight against any state religion.  We have enough problems with the reds verses blue bull-s--t here in the United States, can you even begin to understand the horror if a state religion came into it.  Most politicians are corrupt, not all, but the lure of power is addictive no doubt about it.

The Christian path is not about power, or hatred, or screaming at others, it is about becoming Christ Jesus for others, it is about a participation in the life of God and in doing that, loving, praying and helping others no matter who they are or what they believe, it is about love.....though that word is over used just like the god word.  I would say that a devout Muslim, who understands that Allah is compassionate, would agree with me as well.  It is easy to slide into hatred, violence, harder to go against that and to seek the true core of any faith and live it out......that will go against culture brainwashing, which is just as bad as political or religious brain washing and much more dangerous in point of fact and pervasive.

Edited by markdohle, 16 August 2013 - 12:54 PM.


#2    DeWitz

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:42 PM

Both political leaders and movements, and religious authorities and traditions do their share of brainwashing, mind control, group manipulation, etc. I agree that the unseemly combination of political power and spiritual influence is dangerous at best, demonic at worst. In many cultures this confluence produces a broad-based cultural brainwashing, but it is not neatly separable into specific categroies (political; religious; cultural).

Sociologist and writer Robert Bellah labeled this phenomenon "civil religion." In the US it manifests itself in apparently benign ways as the presidential send-off, "God bless you, and God bless these United States of America," and as toxically confusing as a presidential candidate stating in 2000 that "Jesus" was his "favorite philosopher," and so many people said "Amen."

Civil religion is what we see all around us even on secular holidays, especially Memorial Day, July 4th, Veterans Day and even Labor Day. Working in Christian congregations "civil religion" is often invisible, and many people resent it being pointed out as a distraction or even detriment to serving the least of those among us.

Curiously, some state (or previously state) church nations (England, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Finland) have very low attendance rates at worship/mass/service, but relatively high cultural tolerance and political freedom. In many ways the USA is something of an oddity or aberration: High rates (relatively) of church attendance, but deep seams of social, economic, political, racial, ethnic and linguistic confusion or even conflict.

In my opinion, the role of the Christian in today's world is like unto Jesus' time and the century or so thereafter: To care for widows and orphans, to give the cup of water as needed, to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to welcome the stranger and to visit those in prison. Cultural models for this exist (Amnesty International; Doctors Without Borders) but are minority players at present on the world scene.

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#3    Jeremiah65

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 01:46 PM

I doubt we will see a state religion anytime soon...(fingers crossed).  Not that we have been doing a great job of adhering to it's principles, but our founding documents (the Constitution and the Bill of Rights)...do not allow for it.

Bad is now good, slavery is freedom, war is peace.  We live in a society that has been turned upside down.

The "Moral Majority" that seems to dominate the right wing/conservative parties is as far from the teaching of Christ as you can get.  I will not get into my personal political and spiritual beliefs other than to say I disagree with most of what the left and the right have to say...I disagree with their total "broad brush" approach to governance and civility and society.

I like a quote I heard that supposedly came from Ghandi "I like your Christ, but I do not care for your Christians"...he could see the hypocrisy...

Edited by Jeremiah65, 16 August 2013 - 01:47 PM.

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#4    markdohle

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:38 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 16 August 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Both political leaders and movements, and religious authorities and traditions do their share of brainwashing, mind control, group manipulation, etc. I agree that the unseemly combination of political power and spiritual influence is dangerous at best, demonic at worst. In many cultures this confluence produces a broad-based cultural brainwashing, but it is not neatly separable into specific categroies (political; religious; cultural).

Sociologist and writer Robert Bellah labeled this phenomenon "civil religion." In the US it manifests itself in apparently benign ways as the presidential send-off, "God bless you, and God bless these United States of America," and as toxically confusing as a presidential candidate stating in 2000 that "Jesus" was his "favorite philosopher," and so many people said "Amen."

Civil religion is what we see all around us even on secular holidays, especially Memorial Day, July 4th, Veterans Day and even Labor Day. Working in Christian congregations "civil religion" is often invisible, and many people resent it being pointed out as a distraction or even detriment to serving the least of those among us.

Curiously, some state (or previously state) church nations (England, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Finland) have very low attendance rates at worship/mass/service, but relatively high cultural tolerance and political freedom. In many ways the USA is something of an oddity or aberration: High rates (relatively) of church attendance, but deep seams of social, economic, political, racial, ethnic and linguistic confusion or even conflict.

In my opinion, the role of the Christian in today's world is like unto Jesus' time and the century or so thereafter: To care for widows and orphans, to give the cup of water as needed, to feed the hungry, to cloth the naked, to welcome the stranger and to visit those in prison. Cultural models for this exist (Amnesty International; Doctors Without Borders) but are minority players at present on the world scene.

Thank you very much, a very good comment, your last paragraph was the best.

Peace
Mark


#5    markdohle

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 16 August 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I doubt we will see a state religion anytime soon...(fingers crossed).  Not that we have been doing a great job of adhering to it's principles, but our founding documents (the Constitution and the Bill of Rights)...do not allow for it.

Bad is now good, slavery is freedom, war is peace.  We live in a society that has been turned upside down.

The "Moral Majority" that seems to dominate the right wing/conservative parties is as far from the teaching of Christ as you can get.  I will not get into my personal political and spiritual beliefs other than to say I disagree with most of what the left and the right have to say...I disagree with their total "broad brush" approach to governance and civility and society.

I like a quote I heard that supposedly came from Ghandi "I like your Christ, but I do not care for your Christians"...he could see the hypocrisy...

There will always be failure, in fact it is what inspires us to keep moving forward.  It is when it is hidden that trouble starts and you get what you stated above.  Looking at anything but oneself.  Love of self, love of others and love of God, to live that, to understand that is a life long process I believe.....perhaps an eternal one.

peace
Mark


#6    GreenmansGod

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:01 PM

Right on, I wouldn't want government in my religion.  What I hate is the politicians who run their campaign on Christian card.   No matter what kind of scum bag they are they get voted in by people who are voting religion. I was at a political event and one of them did was speech saying how he went to Church every week blah blah...   When I got to talk to him I told him he lost my vote, I don't vote religion, I am  not a Christian I am a Pagan and I vote issues I don't care about your religion.  He got in and he is scum bag he got booted out of office after he got caught buying cocaine.

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#7    Zaphod222

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:13 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 16 August 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

The Christian path is not about power, or hatred, or screaming at others, it is about becoming Christ Jesus for others, it is about a participation in the life of God and in doing that, loving, praying and helping others no matter who they are or what they believe, it is about love.....though that word is over used just like the god word.  I would say that a devout Muslim, who understands that Allah is compassionate, would agree with me as well.

Alas, that is total wishful thinking on your side. I am sure many *muslims* would agree with you, But not the devout ones, who have studied the Koran, and the life of Mohammed.

Just read up on what the leading clerics of both the Shia and Sunni branches are saying.

It is ignorance and wishful thinking like your, which makes Christians so dangerous for the survival of Western society. In their befuddled, well-meaning minds, they see islam as a just a harmless, personal religion like modern Christianity. Well, it is not.

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." (Omar M. Ahmad, CAIR chairman)

Edited by Zaphod222, 17 August 2013 - 04:14 PM.

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#8    markdohle

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 17 August 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Alas, that is total wishful thinking on your side. I am sure many *muslims* would agree with you, But not the devout ones, who have studied the Koran, and the life of Mohammed.

Just read up on what the leading clerics of both the Shia and Sunni branches are saying.

It is ignorance and wishful thinking like your, which makes Christians so dangerous for the survival of Western society. In their befuddled, well-meaning minds, they see islam as a just a harmless, personal religion like modern Christianity. Well, it is not.

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." (Omar M. Ahmad, CAIR chairman)

Religion is far from harmless, just as is politics, and miitant Muslims are a real danger, as are militant Christians.  Look what militant atheist did in the 20th century, perhaps the bloodiest in history.  It does not mean that all in those groups are dangerous fanatics.

Perhaps those like you, who insist on making simplitic statments like:  "People if they used their brains would not believe in God"
are the real danger,

Edited by markdohle, 17 August 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#9    LostSouls7

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:10 AM

I think most state and religious systems are all control systems.

I believe it's not until you are a free thinker and don't follow a leader that you are truly free
and self empowered.

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#10    GreenmansGod

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:02 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 17 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Perhaps those like you, who insist on making simplitic statments like "People if they used their brains would not believe in God"
are the real danger,

Quote

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Quran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." (Omar M. Ahmad, CAIR chairman)

Zapod is asking you to think,  the Cleric  is telling you what to think.  I hope you can see how that is different. Thinking is good.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie




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