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Ten Reasons Not To Live On Mars


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#16    seeder

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 12:54 PM

Some great replies Robert, Im just dipping in again before leaving for a couple of weeks, so basically then, the Mars One plan is probably doomed from the start, or maybe not doomed, but if it goes ahead, Im not entirely sure those going will enjoy it for long. Id go stir crazy being cooped up in a living pod or whatever they send.

Still, as with all explorations, someone has to give it a try first I guess

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#17    robertinventor

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:32 PM

Hi seeder, I hope that the Mars One people could change their goal in some way, if they are fixated on the Mars surface yes I do see it as doomed, or at any rate unless something radically changes in our knowledge of Mars rather hard to see how it could work out. It's not just me that says that of course, the plans were met with a lot of skepticisim in many quarters.

But if they start closer to home, a colony on the Moon or in the L1 or L2 position first, that could work out. The "peaks of almost eternal sunlight" on the Moon would be rather exciting places for a colony I think, at least as awe inspiring a place to live as Mars for ordinary people, and much brighter, I think the dim greyish red light of the Mars landscape would be depressing for humans long term (not mentioned that in the article).

Or if they are really keen to go to Mars, then maybe an orbital colony and explore the surface by telepresence. With the current not very complete understanding of ways to keep a self sustained habitat going for months, is pretty hard to do that too, and I think such an expedition would need some members who are very technical and able to solve complex technical emergencies quickly by themselves if necessary, similar to the original Apollo astronauts. And it would be a great shame to send an expedition to Mars orbit without any exobiologists on board, or at least people highly trained in biology and science as a second subject, so they can assist with real time biological experiments on the surface.

But - if Mars One did raise billions of dollars, I have wondered, could they do a big international collaborative expedition with the scientists who are so keen to go there? Could that be a mixed mission of maybe a dozen people some ordinary folk from Mars One and some specialist scientists and some highly trained astronauts? And of course also at least one trained as a doctor, for a distant long term mission like that, not just a paramedic. Would that work? Would there be enough interesting things for the less highly trained people to do (e.g. driving and flying rovers on the surface via telerobotics perhaps, with a well funded expedition you could have numerous telerobots on the surface, and growing plants in greenhouses, mining Deimos for resources, or whatever, plus simply entertainment, keeping everyone happy, cooking, and poets, musicians etc able to respond to the situation and journalist types able to describe it very well for those of us back home). I'm sure with a reasonably large habitat in orbit, and budget, you could have a wide variety of people with different skills and that it would work well and probably be better than a purely science and astronauts mix. For smaller habitats not sure and don't know how many you need for it to be safe to have a mix of specialities and skills like that.

So those are my thoughts on it, for what it is worth. And the one positive thing about Mars One, I really like the idea of sending ordinary folk to go exploring especially artistic and musical etc, I think there are artistic and societal, and other discoveries to be made in space, not just scientific ones.

FWIW, with a smaller mission even to Mars orbit (easy to return to Earth), if just say two or four or six astronauts, and none or few of them highly trained, I would be deeply concerned about their personal safety, at current state of knowledge and technology. It would seems to me that it would be too easy for some emergency to arise that needs fast action which they can't solve by communication with experts on Earth quickly enough, with 8 minute delays between each message in the support communications.

And for a surface mission, it would basically all be for nothing as I think an all out push to colonize Mars would lead to the "it's been done syndrome". Also seems that they would almost certainly contaminate Mars irreversibly at some point or other, which would be a depressing thing from them too, to know that that is what they achieved as the main thing they would be known for, after all the effort to go there.

Perhaps though (if my analysis is right) it can be turned to a more positive direction somehow?

View Postseeder, on 19 August 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Some great replies Robert, Im just dipping in again before leaving for a couple of weeks, so basically then, the Mars One plan is probably doomed from the start, or maybe not doomed, but if it goes ahead, Im not entirely sure those going will enjoy it for long. Id go stir crazy being cooped up in a living pod or whatever they send.

Still, as with all explorations, someone has to give it a try first I guess


Edited by robertinventor, 19 August 2013 - 01:49 PM.


#18    Elfin

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:35 PM

It's probably not right up there in the top 10 reasons, but how would you construct a natal chart for someone born on Mars? Or even the moon, for that matter.


#19    Junior Chubb

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:57 PM

Welcome to UM RobertInventor, I really enjoyed your article and glad you made your way to UM. :tu:

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to show me where the hell Helen of Annoy has been for the past couple of months.

#20    brlesq1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

Once the problems are solved, I think we'll colonize Mars. Maybe not in my lifetime (most likely not), but we'll get there.

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#21    seeder

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:04 PM

View Postbrlesq1, on 20 August 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Once the problems are solved, I think we'll colonize Mars. Maybe not in my lifetime (most likely not), but we'll get there.

unless the middle east crisis doesn't see us all blown up first in world wars. Or some earthly catastrophe.  Oh well, fingers crossed eh?

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#22    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:18 PM

View Postrobertinventor, on 19 August 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Hi there, I'm the author of the article. I've just had to disable comments there because of a burst of spam about 100 replies to delete in two or three hours was spending much of my time just deleting spam (never appears on the website but you still have to delete it).

On gravity yes we know that zero g is bad for human health, leads to bone loss as one of the worst effects, losing up to 20% of your bone mass in six months
http://science1.nasa...001/ast01oct_1/

Other effects include muscle atrophy, weakening of immune system, decreased production of red blood cells, and possibility of severe eyesight problems.
http://en.wikipedia...._health_effects

However no-one knows if any of those happen if you have low g rather than zero g. We simply can't simulate low g on Earth for any sustained period of time to investigate it. The zero g effects were unexpected, so we also can't model what is going to happen with any degree of confidence as I understand.

So Martian g might be completely safe, lunar g also, but we simply don't know yet, and as you say, might cause severe problems.

I do mention it in the article, but not as a separate topic. I lumped low g along with the UV and cosmic radiation into the section
10. Mars is too small to be worth colonizing


As for biological cycle, then the day is close enough to Earth's  just a few minutes difference, not heard anyone suggest that would be an issue. But the year of 687 days is nearly twice as long as an Earth year. That might be confusing for trees, and for ecosystems, more relevant for terraforming if that is ever done. I've seen it mentioned as an issue though probably not a major one.



I noticed you left "It's far too awesome a place" off you list.

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#23    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:19 PM

View PostElfin, on 19 August 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

It's probably not right up there in the top 10 reasons, but how would you construct a natal chart for someone born on Mars? Or even the moon, for that matter.

I would hope that anyone that were giving birth on the moon or mars would be far far from the belief in something as dull as astrology.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


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#24    robertinventor

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:36 PM

Actually that can be a reason for not colonizing it too. Because it is too awesome and amazing to spoil it by contaminating it with Earth life before you have a chance to study it. I talk a bit about that here, How Valuable is Pristine Mars for Humanity - Opinion Piece? - at the end, under "What if the decision is to keep Mars biologically pristine for ever?"

And - the Moon is pretty awesome too, especially I think the peaks of eternal sunlight. If you can forget about the "it's been done" feeling for the Moon and try to look at it afresh, it would be pretty awesome if humans were to colonize the Moon.

I think the awesomeness of Mars for humans is overrated, because to unaided human vision it wouldn't look like the images Nasa produces - because those are white balanced to help geologists to identify the rocks, and that's covered in

To human vision though it might be rather depressing, long term, because the only colours are dull reddish greys and browns and light levels are lower than for Earth. That's on the list as number 8,
Posted Image
The one in the middle is what it looks like to unaided human eyes.

And in a duststorm:
Posted Image

With telerobotics you can explore it more thoroughly and with immersive experience - and what's more not just the Mars explorers but their video feeds could be streamed right back to Earth so we all see Mars just as they see it with their telerobots. And explore anywhere on the surface where there's a rover, jump from one to another.

Also it's just about reasons not to colonize it right now. As for the future, well that would depend on what we discover.

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 20 August 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

I noticed you left "It's far too awesome a place" off you list.



#25    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:18 PM

View Postrobertinventor, on 20 August 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Actually that can be a reason for not colonizing it too. Because it is too awesome and amazing to spoil it by contaminating it with Earth life before you have a chance to study it. I talk a bit about that here, How Valuable is Pristine Mars for Humanity - Opinion Piece? - at the end, under "What if the decision is to keep Mars biologically pristine for ever?"

And - the Moon is pretty awesome too, especially I think the peaks of eternal sunlight. If you can forget about the "it's been done" feeling for the Moon and try to look at it afresh, it would be pretty awesome if humans were to colonize the Moon.

I think the awesomeness of Mars for humans is overrated, because to unaided human vision it wouldn't look like the images Nasa produces - because those are white balanced to help geologists to identify the rocks, and that's covered in

To human vision though it might be rather depressing, long term, because the only colours are dull reddish greys and browns and light levels are lower than for Earth. That's on the list as number 8,
Posted Image
The one in the middle is what it looks like to unaided human eyes.

And in a duststorm:
Posted Image

With telerobotics you can explore it more thoroughly and with immersive experience - and what's more not just the Mars explorers but their video feeds could be streamed right back to Earth so we all see Mars just as they see it with their telerobots. And explore anywhere on the surface where there's a rover, jump from one to another.

Also it's just about reasons not to colonize it right now. As for the future, well that would depend on what we discover.

I understand what you are saying, however, I also believe that we need to get off of this rock.

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


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#26    seeder

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 20 August 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I understand what you are saying, however, I also believe that we need to get off of this rock.

I reckon if the worlds govt's stopped such a focus on dominance, wars, oil and money and power, and instead, invested in sorting out the earth and its problems,  then we could all live happily on the paradise that earth truly is/was and could be

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#27    Eldorado

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:35 PM

10b: You'd need a helluva fit postman.


#28    seeder

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 20 August 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I would hope that anyone that were giving birth on the moon or mars would be far far from the belief in something as dull as astrology.


Just think tho, anyone born on Mars....would be a REAL MARTIAN !!

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#29    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:41 PM

View Postseeder, on 20 August 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I reckon if the worlds govt's stopped such a focus on dominance, wars, oil and money and power, and instead, invested in sorting out the earth and its problems,  then we could all live happily on the paradise that earth truly is/was and could be

So if we just stop being human?

"You do not teach the paths of the forest to an old gorilla."


"It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired - you quit when the gorilla is tired."


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#30    seeder

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 20 August 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

So if we just stop being human?

and thats the thing really isnt it? Lets say mars colonization was possible and actually worked. Then there will be the question of, who supplies the water? The food? Clothing?. So someone will setup a business to do the things mentioned, and then want something in return for it. Like money for example, or whatever valuable martian rocks there may be.

And then as we all know.... money is the root of all evil. So, who would be head of the martian colonies? And how would he/she be elected? And who will keep an eye on the revelers? Ah - then we need security forces too.

And before you know it... its earth all over again. People do what people do!  OK Im being praps pessimistic..

But where man goes, man does what men do



.

Edited by seeder, 20 August 2013 - 09:50 PM.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"




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