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Toltecs caused Maya collapse?


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#16    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

Before this "?" sign is question. Post 12.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#17    Abramelin

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 19 August 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The Classic Maya Collapse refers to the decline of the Mayan Classic Period and abandonment of the Classic Period Maya cities of the southern Maya lowlands of Mesoamerica between the 8th and 9th centuries.
Toltecs took power from 8 century.To be exact around 750.
Toltecs were military state who established army of Coyotes, Eaglewarriors, Jaguars.

The "Toltecs" never existed as a tribe under that name. It was a(n Aztec) title, meaning something like "master builder", "artist", "craftsman".


#18    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:30 PM

I remember reading once that they used that name. That means citizen of Tollan, Tula. (?) Anyway what do you think on idea?

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#19    Abramelin

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:55 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 04 September 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

I remember reading once that they used that name. That means citizen of Tollan, Tula. (?) Anyway what do you think on idea?

Big Bad Voodoo

They never used that name, it was a title.

Like "Olmec" means 'rubber people', or 'people of the rubber'.

Maybe they used condoms, god knows, lol.


#20    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 September 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

They never used that name, it was a title.

Like "Olmec" means 'rubber people', or 'people of the rubber'.

Maybe they used condoms, god knows, lol.

Yes Im aware of Olmec meaning, however I read that Toltecs called themselves Toltecs.
But Mesoamerica is murky. Aztecs were also only people in Tenochtitlan. But we call all people who live in Aztec empire Aztecs.
Their name was Mexica, Chichimecs.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#21    Abramelin

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:16 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 04 September 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Yes Im aware of Olmec meaning, however I read that Toltecs called themselves Toltecs.
But Mesoamerica is murky. Aztecs were also only people in Tenochtitlan. But we call all people who live in Aztec empire Aztecs.
Their name was Mexica, Chichimecs.

Big Bad Voodoo

We have no idea how the Toltecs called themselves,or even if they were a separate tribe.

As I said, "Toltec" is an Aztec title,not the name of some tribe.

==

The general name for Aztecs and related tribes was Nahua, hence the name of their language:Nahuatl.


#22    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 September 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

We have no idea how the Toltecs called themselves,or even if they were a separate tribe.

As I said, "Toltec" is an Aztec title,not the name of some tribe.

==

The general name for Aztecs and related tribes was Nahua, hence the name of their language:Nahuatl.

Ofcourse we get much from Aztecs because they saw them as Hebrews ,choosen people and their Tlatoani burned all books before and change history to fit to their view.
However Im quite sure that I read more then two places that Toltecs call themselves Toltecs. Chichimecs were tribe on norths. One of those chichimecs were Aztecs, Mexica is how they called themselves. Toltecs spoke Nahuatl laguage too. Tola means place where reed grows. Perhaps that somehow linked with Toltecs name.

Big Bad Voodoo

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#23    Abramelin

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:31 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 04 September 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Ofcourse we get much from Aztecs because they saw them as Hebrews ,choosen people and their Tlatoani burned all books before and change history to fit to their view.
However Im quite sure that I read more then two places that Toltecs call themselves Toltecs. Chichimecs were tribe on norths. One of those chichimecs were Aztecs, Mexica is how they called themselves. Toltecs spoke Nahuatl laguage too. Tola means place where reed grows. Perhaps that somehow linked with Toltecs name.

Big Bad Voodoo

Maybe you are quite sure about those Toltecs, but I know for certain that "Toltec" was a title, and not a name of a tribe.

It's anthropologists who gave the builders of Teotihuacan the name "Toltecs".


#24    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:20 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 September 2013 - 11:31 PM, said:

Maybe you are quite sure about those Toltecs, but I know for certain that "Toltec" was a title, and not a name of a tribe.

It's anthropologists who gave the builders of Teotihuacan the name "Toltecs".

Toltecs didnt built Teotihuacan Abramelin, their capital was Tula north of Teotihuacan. And their golden age come after Teotihuacan collapsed.?
When Aztec came and sack Tula and built Tenochtitlan maybe they took name Toltec for title.
Time line goes like this: Olmecs, Zapotecs, Teotihuacan, Toltecs, Mexica. In "harsh" manner describe.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 05 September 2013 - 06:27 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#25    Abramelin

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:16 PM

Again: the name "Toltecs" was originally nothing but a title.

Let me phrase it in a different way: the Aztecs said that Teotihuacan was built by 'master builders', or really great masons, or whatever.

Later that name, Toltec(s), was adopted by archeologists as name for a certain style of building and the people who did the building.

Again: THERE WERE NO PEOPLE CALLED TOLTECS.

Sorry for the caps.

It's archeologists who muddied the waters with their obsession of giving unknown peoples a name.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 September 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#26    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

Dont know I would have to check this somewhere.Ofcourse I could be wrong. Anyway thanks for homework! :tu:
And no offence taken.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 05 September 2013 - 10:27 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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