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New Jersey to ban gay conversion treatments

homosexuality gay new jersey

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#1    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:34 PM

I see where New Jersey is acting to enact a ban on efforts to "convert" homosexuals from being gay.  I can see the medical authorities intervening if such treatments are fraudulent or ineffective or harmful, but should such things be made illegal in their entirety?  If a person wants to take such a treatment that has been shown with the appropriate studies to be safe and effective, shouldn't that be allowed?


#2    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 August 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

If a person wants to take such a treatment that has been shown with the appropriate studies to be safe and effective, shouldn't that be allowed?

Why not have straight conversion treatment?

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#3    Odin11

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:15 PM

That's just the thing, gay conversion "therapy" has not been shown to be safe or effective, quite the opposite really.

There’s nothing to fix, and most people don’t want to do the “treatment” they are being forced to do it. Those that do want such a “treatment” need mental help of a different sort from real therapists.  

We should call it what it really is gay conversion torture.

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#4    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:29 PM

Straight conversion treatment for those who want to be gay would be fine; the point is the freedom of the individual.  That some forms of present-day conversion treatments may be describable as torture is not relevant.

The point is the state interfering in medical procedures desired by the patient that have been shown to be safe and effective.


#5    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:31 PM

Yes I agree there do not appear to be any such treatments available today, but we don't know about what might be discovered.


#6    Purplos

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:16 PM

Quote

The point is the state interfering in medical procedures desired by the patient that have been shown to be safe and effective.

But they haven't been.


I'm all for the state banning 'medical' or 'psychological' therapies that have no proven records.

Embrace the impossible.

#7    Jeremiah65

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:17 PM

Yeah...this is government over reach yet again.  For what it's worth, a person's sexual preference is of no concern to me.  I really do not care.  The issue here is...the Gov getting involved in things they have no business being involved in.

When will people open their eyes as to what the role of gov is supposed to be?  They are not supposed to be our damn nannies...they are supposed to defend us...provide infrastructure...and facilitate commerce....that's it!  Nothing more!

If there is an audience or customer base for "gay conversion" therapy...then apparently someone wants it...it should be there...that is what "free markets" do...they fulfill a need or desire.

Posted Image I give up....people want smaller gov and more freedom and then they accept proclamations like this....this is not medieval europe and the state Gov is not a monarch...they have no business getting involved in this.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 19 August 2013 - 09:19 PM.

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#8    Kowalski

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 19 August 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:


When will people open their eyes as to what the role of gov is supposed to be?  They are not supposed to be our damn nannies...they are supposed to defend us...provide infrastructure...and facilitate commerce....that's it!  Nothing more!

If there is an audience or customer base for "gay conversion" therapy...then apparently someone wants it...it should be there...that is what "free markets" do...they fulfill a need or desire.


Well said! :clap:


#9    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostJeremiah65, on 19 August 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Yeah...this is government over reach yet again.  For what it's worth, a person's sexual preference is of no concern to me.  I really do not care.  The issue here is...the Gov getting involved in things they have no business being involved in.

When will people open their eyes as to what the role of gov is supposed to be?  They are not supposed to be our damn nannies...they are supposed to defend us...provide infrastructure...and facilitate commerce....that's it!  Nothing more!

If there is an audience or customer base for "gay conversion" therapy...then apparently someone wants it...it should be there...that is what "free markets" do...they fulfill a need or desire.

Posted Image I give up....people want smaller gov and more freedom and then they accept proclamations like this....this is not medieval europe and the state Gov is not a monarch...they have no business getting involved in this.

The governmet does have agencies that get involved when parents are unfit and when children are in danger or abused. Would you say that is 'nannying'? This ban is aimed at conversion therapy aimed at children. This 'therapy' is not aimed at people that want it for themselves, but at vunerable children. As such it should be opposed as strongly as any other form of abuse to children, because that's what it is, plain and simple. As Odin said above, it's not therapy it's torture and torture of children at that.

Saying it should be allowed because there's obviously a customer base is as foolish as saying that we should allow pedophilia for the same reason. People want to see children being raped and will pay for it, so why shouldn't it be there? Free markets right? Doesn't matter that children are being abused just because someone's willing to pay right?

The government should absolutely get involved to protect children from abuse and children shouldn't be abused in any form simply because there's a 'market for it'.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
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#10    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:54 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 August 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Straight conversion treatment for those who want to be gay would be fine; the point is the freedom of the individual.  That some forms of present-day conversion treatments may be describable as torture is not relevant.

The point is the state interfering in medical procedures desired by the patient that have been shown to be safe and effective.

We have to deal with the here and now first and foremost. Today 'conversion therapy' is akin to torture and most people are forced into it or guilted into it by family or their faith. These people absolutely to need help, but the promise of a 'cure' is not the help that is required, especially when that cure has been universally considered both harmful and a fraud.

The state should interfere to regulate medical procedures which have been proven ot to work to ensure that people aren't being conned, lied to and harmed.

Let's say you had an organisation and they were claiming they could cure cancer if someone paid $9000 to them. They gave them pills and a tonic an told them not to take any other form of medication. The person, buying into the promise does eactly that and instead of getting better, they get worse. Why? Because the pills are sugar pills and the tonic is nothing but coloured flavoured water. Should such a group not face criminal prosecution because the people came to them beieveing they'd be cured?

At the end of the day this is what the problem is, people offering a 'cure' that doesn't work. The possibility that a future 'cure' will come to light doesn't matter, because we are dealing with the here and now. The example above wouldn't be suddenly ok because there'll be a cure for cancer in the future would it? So why should this be?

Edited by shadowhive, 20 August 2013 - 10:01 AM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#11    shrooma

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:37 AM

didn't they try this already, with Alan Turing?
hardly an advertisement for the concept really.....

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#12    Jeremiah65

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:21 PM

Caveat Emptor - Let the buyer beware
Caveat venditor - Let the seller beware.

Do your homework before you buy goods or services.  If you don't...sucks to be you.  "A fool and his money are soon parted"

I will never accept the Nanny/Police state...regardless how many tear jerking scenarios you can dig out of the ugly history of human behavior...

It is within the capacity of human beings, both individually and collectively, to deal with these things without the need of the Iron fist of oppressive Government.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 20 August 2013 - 02:22 PM.

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#13    Moon Gazer

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:48 PM

I don't want to goggle it from work, but can anyone briefly outline how they do this "treatment"?  Do they like show them gay porn and then slap them in the face or something???  I simply can't understand how they think homsexuality can be treated :huh:


#14    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 20 August 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Caveat Emptor - Let the buyer beware
Caveat venditor - Let the seller beware.

Do your homework before you buy goods or services.  If you don't...sucks to be you.  "A fool and his money are soon parted"

I will never accept the Nanny/Police state...regardless how many tear jerking scenarios you can dig out of the ugly history of human behavior...

It is within the capacity of human beings, both individually and collectively, to deal with these things without the need of the Iron fist of oppressive Government.

Ah so if anyone doesn't 'do their homework' before they buy something it's their own fault if something goes wrong and they're not entitled to any form of settlement or justice? I think that in and of itself speaks volumes about your negative attitude. It's not that you don't want governemnt involved you don't want anyone involved in any way with any problem anyone has.

I'm against a police state as well. However, we DO have laws and it's up to government organisations (child services, trading standards, police) to uphold those laws.  don't see how those organisations doing their job amounts to a 'police state' though.

Personally I don't think it's oppressive to put a stop to children being tortured. Apparently that doesn't matter all that much as long as someone pays for the privelge. this aw is solely to prevent parents from forcing their children to go to through conversion therapy. These people don't decide it for themselves, they don't have a choice in the matter. It's pure and simple abuse and should be dealt with appropriately not excused away if it was a public service being provided.

It's within the capacity of human beings to deal with these things, which is why police and justice system were formed in the first place. It was human being's colective decision to put into place a system that works to bring about justice and set things right. But that's somehow not enouh for you. Somehow that's not the 'wil of the people' but 'the iron fist of government'. Tell me, what's the alternative? Peope taking the law into their own hands using an 'eye for an eye' as a guide?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#15    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostMoon Gazer, on 20 August 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

I don't want to goggle it from work, but can anyone briefly outline how they do this "treatment"?  Do they like show them gay porn and then slap them in the face or something???  I simply can't understand how they think homsexuality can be treated :huh:

It seems to vary from place to place. I've heard of them using electroshock treatment being used (similar to your slap thng bt with electricity). I have heard of conversion camps where children get sent to if they show any sort of homosexual tendancy (no matter of they're actually gay or not). Some of the 'treatments' involved their included locking children in a basement all day, starving them and the aforementoned shock therapy. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can have an objection to banning such a practice when children are submitted to such things. It seems we are against the abuse of children unless it's in the name of 'curing them'.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."




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