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New Jersey to ban gay conversion treatments

homosexuality gay new jersey

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#16    Jeremiah65

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:24 PM

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Whatever...If there was no market, businesses are forced to close their doors....supply and demand...if there is no demand, there will be no supply.

Goodie for you that you want the GOV to fix everything and make the world all flowers and butterflies...

Yes I have a negative attitude because I do not coddle the stupid...just like people that hose their money away on "psychic hotline"...I think they are stupid...but hey...as I said...a fool and his money are soon parted....and the other old applicable saying "there is a sucker born every minute"...It's not my job or your job or the Gov's job to protect them from their own stupidity...

Edited by Jeremiah65, 20 August 2013 - 03:27 PM.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#17    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 20 August 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Posted Image

Whatever...If there was no market, businesses are forced to close their doors....supply and demand...if there is no demand, there will be no supply.

Goodie for you that you want the GOV to fix everything and make the world all flowers and butterflies...

Yes I have a negative attitude because I do not coddle the stupid...just like people that hose their money away on "psychic hotline"...I think they are stupid...but hey...as I said...a fool and his money are soon aprted....and the other old applicable saying "there is a sucker born every minute"...It's not my job or your job or the Gov's job to protect them from their own stupidity...

I get it, you don't care about humanity as long as money's to be made. Money is clearly all that matters to you. The suffering of others? Doesn't seem to bother you that much. As long as someone's made money out of it.

It shows how callous you are because you're defending the torture of children simply because 'there's a market for it'. No thought to the health and well being of the kids, just that someone's making money off it.

Edited by shadowhive, 20 August 2013 - 03:32 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#18    Kowalski

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:51 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 20 August 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

I get it, you don't care about humanity as long as money's to be made. Money is clearly all that matters to you. The suffering of others? Doesn't seem to bother you that much. As long as someone's made money out of it.

It shows how callous you are because you're defending the torture of children simply because 'there's a market for it'. No thought to the health and well being of the kids, just that someone's making money off it.

I don't think your understanding at all what Jeremiah is saying....

And no one is torturing kids, so calm down.


#19    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostKowalski, on 20 August 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't think your understanding at all what Jeremiah is saying....

And no one is torturing kids, so calm down.

No, I do. This law is banning children under 18 from being submitted to conversion therapy. They have no choice, they are being forced into it. It's not regulated, often could be classified as torture, and has been universally proven not to work by professionals. And yet he is defending it and why? Simply because there's a market for it.

Let me ask you, why is that acceptable? You've liked every single post he's made, so clearly you must think so. So why? Why is it ok for vulnerable children kids to be submitted to 'therapy' against their will?

I don't think kids being treated in such a way is something we should be 'calm' about.

Edited by shadowhive, 20 August 2013 - 04:03 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#20    Kowalski

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 20 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

No, I do. This law is banning children under 18 from being submitted to conversion therapy. They have no choice, they are being forced into it. It's not regulated, often could be classified as torture, and has been universally proven not to work by professionals. And yet he is defending it and why? Simply because there's a market for it.

Let me ask you, why is that acceptable? You've liked every single post he's made, so clearly you must think so. So why? Why is it ok for vulnerable children kids to be submitted to 'therapy' against their will?

I don't think kids being treated in such a way is something we should be 'calm' about.

No one is defending conversion therapy. The question, is why is the government getting involved in this? And you fail to understand the concept of supply and demand. Look, people are going to do, whatever it is their going to do. You may not like it, and find it distasteful, but, those people have the right to do that. Banning things just doesn't work. If parents want their child in gay conversion therapy, and that child is not being beaten or starved, and is in no danger, that is their business, and no one else's, and certainly not the government's. If their is abuse, or torture going on, that is for the cops to investigate....


#21    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostKowalski, on 20 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

No one is defending conversion therapy. The question, is why is the government getting involved in this? And you fail to understand the concept of supply and demand. Look, people are going to do, whatever it is their going to do. You may not like it, and find it distasteful, but, those people have the right to do that. Banning things just doesn't work. If parents want their child in gay conversion therapy, and that child is not being beaten or starved, and is in no danger, that is their business, and no one else's, and certainly not the government's. If their is abuse, or torture going on, that is for the cops to investigate....

Well the government gets involved because (gasp) it makes the law. I don't see why the government banning a harmful practice that is universally condemned is being treated like the worst thing ever.

The treatment doesn't work, it is abusive and no child should be forced to go through it. Full stop. But like with Jeremiah the rights of the child go out the window simplly because the parents want it and will pay. Your only interest is when it 'goes to far' at which point (after complaining about government intervention) you're happy to let them get involved. As always with this stuff, people are only interested in doing anything when it goes too far.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#22    Gromdor

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:25 PM

Why does the government get involved with families that try to pray away illness for their children?  This is basically an extension of that.


#23    Kowalski

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

:sigh:

I give up. You don't get it, you don't get it, I guess....


#24    Jeremiah65

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

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You just don't get it do you?  You said you don't want a Police state...but you are apparently fine with the Nanny state.

It is not the job of the state to steal a parents rights to raise their child as they see fit to be productive parts of society...but apparently to some of you, the concept of being a productive part of society is a great unknown mystery.

So what then?  The state steals the child away and puts it into the corrupt for profit foster care system?...kinda similar to the modern for profit prison system if you ask me.  The foster care system has been proven to suck...it often puts children into more abusive and neglectful circumstances that what they were kidnapped and stolen from.

But by all means, please continue to worship and praise at the alter of the state.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 20 August 2013 - 04:34 PM.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#25    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:39 PM

I didn't have children in mind with my original post, and agree that forcing such treatment on children would be an acceptable thing to prohibit.

Most medical treatments have to be approved by the appropriate agency as safe and effective; I think this is enough protection.  If the treatment offered really is "torture"  as claimed, it would not be safe.  I doubt that.  That it is not effective is more problematic,  and should be demonstrated to prevent fraud.

A complete ban, however, is excessive.

Edited by Frank Merton, 20 August 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#26    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:41 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 20 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Posted Image

You just don't get it do you?  You said you don't want a Police state...but you are apparently fine with the Nanny state.

It is not the job of the state to steal a parents rights to raise their child as they see fit to be productive parts of society...but apparently to some of you, the concept of being a productive part of society is a great unknown mystery.

So what then?  The state steals the child away and puts it into the corrupt for profit foster care system?...kinda similar to the modern for profit prison system if you ask me.  The foster care system has been proven to suck...it often puts children into more abusive and neglectful circumstances that what they were kidnapped and stolen from.

But by all means, please continue to worship and praise at the alter of the state.

If a parent beats up, strarves or sexually abuses their child, what happens? Government agencies intervene and take the child away and no one cpomplains about that being a 'nanny state'. The well being of the child comes first and yes, the government has to get involved sometimes to ensure that in such situations.

I do agree the foster care system needs an overhaul. In some places it seems to work, in others it seems to have severely gone wrong. So yes, I agree something needs to be done to make the system better for those involved.

I'm not worshipping anything. However, I am concerned with children being forced into therapy that doesn't work, simple as that. But like you've proven, all you care about it money.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#27    shadowhive

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 20 August 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

I didn't have children in mind with my original post, and agree that forcing such treatment on children would be an acceptable thing to prohibit.

Most medical treatments have to be approved by the appropriate agency as safe and effective; I think this is enough protection.  If the treatment offered really is "torture"  as claimed, it would not be safe.  I doubt that.  That it is not effective is more problematic,  and should be demonstrated to prevent fraud.

A complete ban, however, is excessive.

Well the bill in question bans conversion therapy being used against children under 18, not adults.

The American Psychooogical Association, which is the appropriate agency here, has said time and again the conversion therapy doesn't work and that it shoud be condeemned. That hasn't stopped the therapy's being offered one bt, which shows that the government needs to get invlved to do so.

From the abc news article about it:

Quote

The Republican governor also said the health risks of trying to change a child's sexual orientation, as identified by the American Psychological Association, outweigh concerns over the government setting limits on parental choice.

"Government should tread carefully into this area," he said in the note, "and I do so here reluctantly."

"However, I also believe that on the issues of medical treatment for children we must look to experts in the field to determine the relative risks and rewards," Christie said, citing a litany of potential ill effects of trying to change sexual orientation, including depression and suicide. "I believe that exposing children to these health risks without clear evidence of benefits that outweigh these serious risks is not appropriate."

From the same article, this is what the therapy has entailed

Quote

The idea of conversion therapy is an old one that has increasingly drawn criticism for its methods. Last year, four gay men sued a Jersey City group for fraud, saying its program included making them strip naked and attack effigies of their mothers with baseball bats

Lawmakers heard horror stories from some during hearings on the ban, including Brielle Goldani of Toms River, who testified she underwent electric shocks and was given drugs to induce vomiting after being sent to an Ohio camp at age 14 to become straight.


Edited by shadowhive, 20 August 2013 - 04:48 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#28    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:52 PM

A ban disallowing such treatment on children makes sense; a person should have reached maturity so they can make their own judgement on what they want.


#29    Jeremiah65

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:35 PM

Nah...no parent ever knew what was best for their child...we should all just pop out babies and hand them over to the state immediately...their gleaming record on education stands as a beacon of how well that shiz works out... :td:

Whatever...go ahead and :nw: before the omnipotent and omniscient power of the almighty state...

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#30    Agent0range

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:39 PM

What world do you live in that everyone is capable of caring for a child?  You talk about how stupid people are less than 10 posts ago, then you go and defend every parent in the United States.  The fact is, PEOPLE ARE STUPID.  Some people should not be allowed to make decisions involving children at all.

And please, please answer some questions for me.  I have read so many of your posts completely bashing the United States and the government.  What do you as a person do to make anything better besides complaining on an internet forum for half of your life?  What are you doing to change things?  Do you think your life would be better somewhere else?  If so, why don't you test that theory?

Edited by Agent0range, 20 August 2013 - 05:41 PM.





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