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Atlantis = Niflheim


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#1    granpa

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 05:27 PM

The original world before Surtr (Suriel) and the Fire Giants according to norse cosmology:
Posted Image

The original world before Ymir according to norse cosmology:
Posted Image


The world the Æsir built according to norse cosmology::
Posted Image
One can see why the middle world was called MIDgard


Ymir is mentioned in two books of the Prose Edda; Gylfaginning and Skáldskaparmál. Ymir is first mentioned in chapter 5 of the prior, in which High, Just-As-High, and Third tell Gangleri (the disguised mythical king Gylfi) about how all things came to be. The trio explain that the first world to exist was Muspell, a glowing, fiery southern region consisting of flames, uninhabitable by non-natives. After "many ages" Niflheimr was made, and within it lies a spring, Hvergelmir, from which flows twelve rivers.

Gangleri asks the three what things were like before mankind. High continues that these icy rivers, which are called Élivágar, ran so far from their spring source that the poisonous matter that flows with them became hard "like the clinker that comes from a furnace"—it turned to ice. And so, when this ice came to a halt and stopped flowing, the vapor that rose up from the poison went in the same direction and froze to rime. This rime increased, layer upon layer, across Ginnungagap.

Just-As-High adds that the northern part of Ginnungagap was heavy with ice and rime, and vapor and blowing came inward from this. Yet the southern part of Ginunngagap was clear on account of the sparks and molten flecks flying from Muspell. Third assesses that "just as from Niflheim there was coldness and all things grim, so what was facing close to Muspell was hot and bright, but Ginunngagap was as mild as a windless sky". Third adds that when the rime and hot air met, it thawed and dripped, and the liquid intensely dropped. This liquid fell into the shape of a man, and so he was named Ymir.

High explains that Ymir is the ancestor of all jötnar (specifically hrimthursar), and that it is said that when Ymir slept, he sweated, and from his left arm and right arm grew a male and a female, and his left leg produced a song with his right leg, and from them came generations


In Vafþrúðnismál Odin asks the Giant Vafþrúðnir about the origin of Ymir. Vafþrúðnir answers:
From Éliwaves
Eitrdrops splashed
that grew into a giant
who begat all families
from which all [giants] come
that is why we are easily angered



Eitr would of course be aether which means air

AETHER : Greek protogenos god of upper air & light ; mythology : AITHER

AITHER (or Aether) was the Protogenos (first-born elemental god) of the bright, glowing upper air of heaven




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergelmir

In Norse mythology, Bergelmir (/bɛərˈjɛlmɪər/ bair-YEL-meer; Old Norse "Mountain Yeller" or "Bear Yeller")[1] is a frost giant, the son of giant Þrúðgelmir and the grandson of Ymir
According to the Gylfaginning section of the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, Bergelmir and his wife alone among the giants were the only survivors of the enormous deluge of blood which flowed from Ymir's wounds when he was killed by Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve. They escaped the sanguinary flood by climbing onto an object and subsequently became the progenitors of a new race of frost giants




Atlantis - Greek Mythology Link

According to Plato's account it was Solon, the Athenian statesman and poet whom History says lived 600 years after the Trojan War, the one who brought from Egypt the story of Atlantis. The very old Egyptian priest who talked with Solon was not at all impressed by the ancient stories of the Greeks, such as the one referring to Phoroneus as "the first man," or the legend of the Flood of Deucalion 1, for these stories, according to his view, were not at all ancient.

This Egyptian priest knew that humankind is periodically destroyed, either by fire or water, or by lesser means. And behind the story of Phaethon 3, the Egyptian said, lies the shifting of the celestial bodies around the earth, which cause destruction by fire on its surface at long intervals. When this happens those living in dry areas or dwelling in mountains suffer destruction more than those living near rivers or by the sea. On the other hand, when the world is flooded, those living in mountains are saved, but those populating the cities near the sea are swept into it by the streams. Things being of this nature, those living by the Nile were spared when the world was destroyed by fire, and when it was destroyed by water they were also spared because rain is scarce in Egypt, the water welling up always from below. In this way, said the Egyptian priest, memories of ancient times could be preserved in this country while all records were destroyed elsewhere.




If the flood of Atlantis was supposed to be the very first great flood then presumably that would be the flooding of niflheim that killed Ymir and the ice giants.

It is tempting to connect that with the story of the Nephilim in the biblical flood.

if atlantis is niflheim then it should be in the north
black sea perhaps?

http://en.wikipedia....a_deluge_theory

The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait

According to a study by Giosan et al. the level in the Black Sea before the marine reconnection was 30 m below present sea level, rather than the 80 m, or lower, of the catastrophe theories. If the flood occurred at all, the sea level increase and the flooded area during the reconnection were significantly smaller than previously proposed. It also occurred earlier than initially surmised, ca. 7400 BC, rather than the originally proposed 5600 BC

In a series of expeditions, a team of marine archaeologists led by Robert Ballard identified what appeared to be ancient shorelines, freshwater snail shells, drowned river valleys, tool-worked timbers, and man-made structures in roughly 100 metres (330 ft) of water off the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey. Although radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusc remains indicated an age of about 7,500 years, radiocarbon dating in freshwater molluscs in particular can be inaccurate. Such inaccuracies, however, are always in the direction of objects appearing older than they actually are (containing less 14C than expected), so the time given is a maximum age of a freshwater shoreline at that location


http://religion.wiki...m/wiki/Atlantis

In Plato's account, Atlantis was a naval power lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BCE. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean "in a single day and night of misfortune".


Posted Image

Edited by granpa, 24 August 2013 - 06:16 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#2    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:47 PM

View Postgranpa, on 24 August 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:



The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait

According to a study by Giosan et al. the level in the Black Sea before the marine reconnection was 30 m below present sea level, rather than the 80 m, or lower, of the catastrophe theories. If the flood occurred at all, the sea level increase and the flooded area during the reconnection were significantly smaller than previously proposed. It also occurred earlier than initially surmised, ca. 7400 BC, rather than the originally proposed 5600 BC

And this date of approx 7400 BC would appear to tie in better with the general timeframe of European peoples appearing in Southern Scandinavia, the Sami already being present in the North and across the far North of Europe. I guess a lot of myth can be laid at the door of the Black Sea inundation, but as for your theory, then I think we need to know more about population movements and when they happened. Black Sea fits of course with the Kurgan hypothesis and would spread a "flood" myth far and wide, though that far back there was nothing to remotely resemble an "Atlantis" civilsation, and certainly no sea going empire with the rudimentary paddle boats they had back then. No keels or sails until much later.


#3    granpa

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:54 PM

maybe not an atlantis civilization

that is to say it was not a civilization by our standards,
but consider how it would have seemed to the people of the time
especially when compared to even earlier even less civilized peoples

but there could have been an atlantis culture and perhaps even an atlantis race (or sub-race)

Edited by granpa, 24 August 2013 - 07:33 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#4    Leonardo

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:05 PM

Plato's Atlantis was actually a metaphor for his contemporary Athens. As for the geography he gave the mythical place, I don't believe that was influenced by any prior 'ancient legend'*, but was purely his own invention.

This does not discount there being a flood-story propagated out by those fleeing the postulated flooding of the Black Sea, and settling into the mythology of later European and Scandinavian cultures. But the scale and rapidity of the catastrophe was, in all likelihood, greatly exaggerated through the passage of time and many re-tellings.

But I do not believe there is any merit in attempting to link Plato's Atlantis to another culture's mythology, as I am convinced no such link (except, perhaps, from the use of the Flood motif) exists.

* I will note that there appears to be a fairly widespread belief among ancient Mediterranean cultures, of an encircling Outer Sea surrounding the 'world' (the lands of Eurasia/North Africa known at the time) and another land mass surrounding that encircling sea. But this outer land mass was not based on any 'knowledge' of it, but on the premise it must exist else the encircling sea would drain away.

Edited by Leonardo, 24 August 2013 - 07:09 PM.

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#5    granpa

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 09:37 PM

http://en.wikipedia....rgan_hypothesis

The Kurgan hypothesis (also theory or model) is one of the proposals about early Indo-European origins, which postulates that the people of an archaeological "Kurgan culture" (a term grouping the Yamna, or Pit Grave, culture and its predecessors) in the Pontic steppe were the most likely speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language. The term is derived from kurgan (курган), a Turkic loanword in Russian for a tumulus or burial mound. The Kurgan model is the most widely accepted scenario of Indo-European origins.

The Kurgan hypothesis was first formulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas, who defined the "Kurgan culture" as composed of four successive periods, with the earliest (Kurgan I) including the Samara and Seroglazovo cultures of the Dnieper/Volga region in the Copper Age (early 4th millennium BC). The bearers of these cultures were nomadic pastoralists, who, according to the model, by the early 3rd millennium BC expanded throughout the Pontic-Caspian steppe and into Eastern Europe.


Posted Image

Edited by granpa, 24 August 2013 - 09:38 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#6    jaylemurph

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:33 AM

You know, my mother does the same thing. If she doesn't get the response she wants, she'll say the same thing over again, the way you've reposted these images. Maybe even the whole post. I mean, I didn't read it then, either. Like most people. Which is why the thread died.

-- Jaylemurph

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Deeply venial

#7    granpa

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:38 AM

I just thought of the atlantis thing today.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#8    DieChecker

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:03 AM

I think you'll see mythological archtypes repeated worldwide in thousands of cultures. The Flood, and The Creation are two of these. Building the world on a dead deity is pretty common. Seperating the "worlds" or "regions" of a mythic place is also very common.

I just personnally think Atlantis is just as real as the 9 worlds of Norse myth... which is to say it is not real.

If you mean to say that the Norse myth of Floods, various worlds and such was inspired by the myth of Atlantis, I'd say it is possible, as the myth of Atlantis was started with Plato in the 4th century BCE, and the Norse myth was formalized between the 8th and 13th centuries. Which is 1200 to 1700 years later.

I personnally feel that the Norse myths (At the end) were heavily influenced by Christian myth. Which in it's turn had probably been influenced somewhat by the Atlantis myth.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#9    cormac mac airt

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:13 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 25 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

I think you'll see mythological archtypes repeated worldwide in thousands of cultures. The Flood, and The Creation are two of these. Building the world on a dead deity is pretty common. Seperating the "worlds" or "regions" of a mythic place is also very common.

I just personnally think Atlantis is just as real as the 9 worlds of Norse myth... which is to say it is not real.

If you mean to say that the Norse myth of Floods, various worlds and such was inspired by the myth of Atlantis, I'd say it is possible, as the myth of Atlantis was started with Plato in the 4th century BCE, and the Norse myth was formalized between the 8th and 13th centuries. Which is 1200 to 1700 years later.

I personnally feel that the Norse myths (At the end) were heavily influenced by Christian myth. Which in it's turn had probably been influenced somewhat by the Atlantis myth.

I'd think it more likely that Christian myths were influenced by Mesopotamian myths and already written down prior to any extant Atlantis myth. As to Norse myths being influenced by Christian myth it wouldn't be the first time, since Irish myths were also heavily influenced by Christian myth.

cormac

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#10    DieChecker

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:36 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 25 August 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

I'd think it more likely that Christian myths were influenced by Mesopotamian myths and already written down prior to any extant Atlantis myth. As to Norse myths being influenced by Christian myth it wouldn't be the first time, since Irish myths were also heavily influenced by Christian myth.

cormac
I agree. I only ment that because the Atlantis myth preceeds Jesus's time, that the Atlantis myth could possibly have influenced Christian myth. I do agree that most Christian/Hebrew myth is earlier Mesopotamian in origin.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#11    cormac mac airt

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:55 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 25 August 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I agree. I only ment that because the Atlantis myth preceeds Jesus's time, that the Atlantis myth could possibly have influenced Christian myth. I do agree that most Christian/Hebrew myth is earlier Mesopotamian in origin.

I think you might not be getting what I'm talking about. Prior to Plato there was no Atlantis myth. And since Christian myth originates from Hebrew myth, which itself predates Plato and originates from Mesopotamian myth (as regards the Flood story), there would be no influence from an Atlantis myth.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#12    DieChecker

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:13 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 25 August 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

I think you might not be getting what I'm talking about. Prior to Plato there was no Atlantis myth. And since Christian myth originates from Hebrew myth, which itself predates Plato and originates from Mesopotamian myth (as regards the Flood story), there would be no influence from an Atlantis myth.

cormac
Yet doesn't Plato predate Jesus by 300+ years?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#13    cormac mac airt

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:21 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 25 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Yet doesn't Plato predate Jesus by 300+ years?

Yes, but Plato's Atlantis concerns an island civilization outside of the western Mediterranean that sunk, while the Hebrew and Mesopotamian flood stories all concern a world-wide/local flood originating with the peoples of Mesopotamia. Different places as well as different origins for each disaster. The only commonality would be some kind of flood, which the Hebrews would have heard about from other Middle Eastern peoples prior to Plato anyway.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 25 August 2013 - 06:22 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#14    DieChecker

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:51 AM

Fair enough.

I just realized that some of what I've been thinking about here was influenced by Dante's Inferno, with the levels of hell and whatnot. :devil:  And not specifically from the Bible.

I think I need to go to bed.... :innocent:

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#15    granpa

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:38 PM

Posted Image
http://religion.wiki...m/wiki/Atlantis

Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, written in 360 BCE, contain the earliest references to Atlantis. For unknown reasons, Plato never completed Critias. Plato introduced Atlantis in Timaeus:
For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent.


According to Critias, the Hellenic gods of old divided the land so that each god might own a lot; Poseidon was appropriately, and to his liking, bequeathed the island of Atlantis. The island was larger than Ancient Libya and Asia Minor combined, but it afterwards was sunk by an earthquake and became an impassable mud shoal, inhibiting travel to any part of the ocean. The Egyptians, Plato asserted, described Atlantis as an island comprising mostly mountains in the northern portions and along the shore, and encompassing a great plain of an oblong shape in the south "extending in one direction three thousand stadia [about 555 km; 345 mi], but across the center inland it was two thousand stadia [about 370 km; 230 mi]." Fifty stadia [9 km; 6 mi] from the coast was a mountain that was low on all sides...broke it off all round about.. the central island itself was five stades in diameter [about 0.92 km; 0.57 mi].

Posted Image

A map depicting the location of the Bosphorus (red) relative to the Dardanelles (yellow) and the Sea of Marmara, which together form the Turkish Straits

Edited by granpa, 25 August 2013 - 05:35 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.




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