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The disappearance of Charles Gazzam Hurd.

missing disappearances mystery charleshurd

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#121    regi

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:11 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 10 November 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

You were being smarmy this latest time so I gave you that smarm right back.
I can't figure out why you seem devoted to LE evidence in one case but are fully comfortable with complete speculation in another.
Consistency would be good.

These are two entirely different cases. This one has precious little to go on and the other has case info. out the wazoo.
You know, sometimes it's gonna be right there in front of you and sometimes it's not.


#122    71sportstourer

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:43 AM

I saw a story about how, in the late sixties, there was a guy who murdered his family, moved away and changed his name. He remarried and lived for years without being discovered as his true self. In those days, if one was especially adept at it, or diabolical, take your choice, wouldn't it have been easy to "disappear"?


#123    Vincennes

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 12:56 AM

Amy, probably Peter already sent this to you but just in cast here is the flyer:

http://www.charleypr...rd_charles.html


I'm sending you this first and looking for the NY Times article.  Just couldn't find it right off and didn't want to lose this.


#124    petermattson

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 09:22 PM

View Post71sportstourer, on 14 November 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

I saw a story about how, in the late sixties, there was a guy who murdered his family, moved away and changed his name. He remarried and lived for years without being discovered as his true self. In those days, if one was especially adept at it, or diabolical, take your choice, wouldn't it have been easy to "disappear"?

All of this is true and it's why we are searching for evidence of how Charles may have disappeared. Working under the assumption that he disappeared - under duress or voluntarily - we can hope to find some trace of him after 1937.


#125    petermattson

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:10 PM

Charles was not going home the night he disappeared.

The map I have linked to is helpful for those of us who are highly visual.

http://skyscraperpag...uildingID=55225

Okay, so if Charles was headed back towards the Kenmore he made a strange turn.

Follow me here.

He ate at the restaurant on E 54th, most likely headed south on 2nd or south on Lexington.

If he was going back to his hotel, he would most likely stay on 2nd or on Lexington all the way to 23 street where the Kenmore is.

His accident was at 3rd and 37th, meaning he must have headed west (or east from Lexington, which would have been a WRONG WAY) on 37th, a mistake since 3rd avenue only goes north and the Kenmore is south of there.

Now, 3rd and 37th is where the exit for I-495 (the Expressway tunnel) is.

The Expressway tunnel wasn't opened until 1940, 3 years after Charles disappeared.

Does anyone know what linked Manhattan to Queens prior to the Expressway tunnel?

And if there was a bridge exit there in 1937, it seems like too much of a coincidence for his car accident to have happened there as well.

Thoughts?


#126    regi

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 03:00 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 15 June 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

He ate at the restaurant on E 54th, most likely headed south on 2nd or south on Lexington.

If he was going back to his hotel, he would most likely stay on 2nd or on Lexington all the way to 23 street where the Kenmore is.

His accident was at 3rd and 37th, meaning he must have headed west (or east from Lexington, which would have been a WRONG WAY) on 37th, a mistake since 3rd avenue only goes north and the Kenmore is south of there.

Are you positive 3rd was one-way back then?


#127    petermattson

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 06:42 PM

View Postregi, on 16 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Are you positive 3rd was one-way back then?

I'm making the assumption that the streets have not changed direction but if there was a way to get a map from 1937 we could also clear up whether that intersection was near an on-ramp or not.


#128    petermattson

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:06 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 15 June 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

Charles was not going home the night he disappeared.

The map I have linked to is helpful for those of us who are highly visual.

http://skyscraperpag...uildingID=55225

Okay, so if Charles was headed back towards the Kenmore he made a strange turn.

Follow me here.

He ate at the restaurant on E 54th, most likely headed south on 2nd or south on Lexington.

If he was going back to his hotel, he would most likely stay on 2nd or on Lexington all the way to 23 street where the Kenmore is.

His accident was at 3rd and 37th, meaning he must have headed west (or east from Lexington, which would have been a WRONG WAY) on 37th, a mistake since 3rd avenue only goes north and the Kenmore is south of there.

Now, 3rd and 37th is where the exit for I-495 is.

The Expressway tunnel wasn't opened until 1940, 3 years after Charles disappeared.

Does anyone know what linked Manhattan to Queens prior to the tunnel?

And if there was a bridge exit there in 1937, it seems like too much of a coincidence for his car accident to have happened there as well.

Thoughts?

As far as I can gather, construction on the tunnel began in 1936 and there must have been a great deal of construction during '36-'40 on 3rd and 37th because that is the mouth of the Manhattan side. That might explain why the car accident happened there. However, there was no bridge or tunnel operating in 1937 so I'm going to shut down that part of my own theory. I still can't explain why he would have been at that intersection as I don't think it would have been his usual route home.


#129    regi

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:21 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 18 June 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

As far as I can gather, construction on the tunnel began in 1936 and there must have been a great deal of construction during '36-'40 on 3rd and 37th because that is the mouth of the Manhattan side. That might explain why the car accident happened there. However, there was no bridge or tunnel operating in 1937 so I'm going to shut down that part of my own theory. I still can't explain why he would have been at that intersection as I don't think it would have been his usual route home.

Well I think it is/was a good theory but I'm really impressed by what led you to it.... I mean that you'd picked up on the fact that 3rd is actually a one-way street north! Seriously, that never occurred to me back when I was studying the case.

I searched for historical maps and other info this afternoon and I finally came across these photos where one is from '37 of 7th Avenue (3rd photo down) which shows 7th to have been two-way. I checked present day and it's now one-way south.

http://www.theatlant...rchives/100318/


#130    Vincennes

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 01:12 AM

View PostVincennes, on 05 September 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I came across this video of New York City, 1938.  Seems like it was done as a promo for movie audiences.  This is how Charles would have last seen New York.  It comes very close to his locations.




View PostVincennes, on 06 September 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Here is another site that has some interesting pictures.  I went through probably at least 200 of them and came to several of Williams Street. office buildings.  Quite impressive.  I also found several that showed the supports for the elevated on 3rd St.  and they were pretty close to 37th.  So you can get an idea of what he hit.  Looks like the 3rd St. was very narrow.

<iframe align="center" src="http://www.flickr.com/slideShow/index.gne?user_id=nypl&set_id=72157610903925533" frameBorder="0" width="500" height="500"></iframe>


Edited by Vincennes, 19 June 2015 - 01:14 AM.


#131    Vincennes

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 01:13 AM

View PostVincennes, on 06 September 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Here is another site that has some interesting pictures.  I went through probably at least 200 of them and came to several of Williams Street. office buildings.  Quite impressive.  I also found several that showed the supports for the elevated on 3rd St.  and they were pretty close to 37th.  So you can get an idea of what he hit.  Looks like the 3rd St. was very narrow.

<iframe align="center" src="http://www.flickr.com/slideShow/index.gne?user_id=nypl&set_id=72157610903925533" frameBorder="0" width="500" height="500"></iframe>

I posted these NY street pictures of the area starting back on Pg.4, I think there were at least 4 posts of them so there's a lot more back in the thread if these don't show what you are looking for. Back then I posted them just as "atmosphere" of the area but some are "aerial" or taken from roofs.  I haven't had time tonight to go back through them but, this first site has about 200, but I'll flip through tomorrow.  You know I don't mind going back and enjoying looking at that era again !

Edited by Vincennes, 19 June 2015 - 01:24 AM.


#132    Vincennes

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 04:32 PM

I reset that link from Pg. 4 and I do think it's the group of photos I had in mind.  There are two that say they are at 2nd and 3rd.  One numbered as # 28, says it is showing 2nd and 3rd and it's aerial.

I have copied the link in at the one that gives a view "Second and third Ave. Lines."

https://www.flickr.c...03925533/player


#133    petermattson

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 05:01 PM

View Postregi, on 18 June 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

Well I think it is/was a good theory but I'm really impressed by what led you to it.... I mean that you'd picked up on the fact that 3rd is actually a one-way street north! Seriously, that never occurred to me back when I was studying the case.

I searched for historical maps and other info this afternoon and I finally came across these photos where one is from '37 of 7th Avenue (3rd photo down) which shows 7th to have been two-way. I checked present day and it's now one-way south.

http://www.theatlant...rchives/100318/

And 57th st. was two way and still is today. 3rd ave. was very narrow so I would guess it was one way but south or north I don't know. It seems unlikely to me that the avenues would have reversed directions but until we get a map of that intersection from that time we really can't be sure.

I'm going to look for clues as to where the Dows Estates building was because presumably he would have gone from work to dinner and then somewhere ... home (?) That might help in the sense that the restaurant may have been close to his work. The info on Dows is scant but I'm giving it a shot.


#134    petermattson

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 06:03 PM

Nevermind. I just remembered that we looked into this a long time ago. He worked at 15 William St. which is near Wall St. in the financial district and as I think Vin pointed out (way back when), it's very far from the restaurant on E. 54th (75 blocks??). I don't know how unusual traveling this far would have been at the time but he was heading back in the direction of his room at the Kenmore after dinner when he ended up hitting the elevated rail structure and perhaps taking 37th st. to Lexington which would have taken him down to 23rd, a two way street.

Maybe he made another stop after the accident and never made it to the Kenmore ?


#135    regi

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 07:31 PM

Well, this is new to me! This is info about the Third Avenue El, an elevated railway which ran from 129th St. past Canal St.

http://www.nycsubway...d#Photo_Gallery

If this link works, it'll show a 1942 photo of the railway taken at 18th St.
https://www.google.c...diers;1826;1922






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