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The disappearance of Charles Gazzam Hurd.

missing disappearances mystery charleshurd

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#31    Vincennes

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:04 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 30 August 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Found an eerie coincidence. Apparently Charles Hurd's wife's ex-lover committed suicide in 1926.

Links here:

http://www.flickr.co...son/9630853698/
http://www.flickr.co...son/9630858562/

Any significance? Who knows.

Charles did have a twin sister, Clarissa, and his cousin was Clement G. Hurd (who later in life became the famous illustrator of GOODNIGHT MOON, THE RUNAWAY BUNNY and others) so I think it's weird that no one was making much of a stir about it. There were people in his life with the means and a motive to keep his case alive but they didn't. (We keep returning to that theme but it's a big part of the puzzle here.)

I somehow missed your post above.   Maybe Mary Louise just had that effect on men ! LOL   I think the suicide is just a coincidence.

View Postpetermattson, on 31 August 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

I think you're right that we are chasing "Gatsby" but are we to assume he committed suicide or changed his identity on the pretense that it was common in those days to do so? My thoughts are that the car accident is crucial to this case and without finding information about that (a police report) it will be very difficult to move forward. Was the accident a failed attempt to fake his death? Was he drunk, on drugs, poisoned, or just careless? If the police were involved, I assume they would have had something to say about his state of mind. His car was obviously not incapacitated and he reportedly drove off. I do think it's likely that he intended to disappear in a Gatsby-like fashion and if that assumption holds true then most likely he changed his identity and did not commit suicide or leave the country. It has been mentioned by the highly knowledgeable and  intelligent contributors in this thread that it was not uncommon for men to abandon their families during this period and create new lives for themselves. If that is true, this mystery is still very open-ended and intriguing because there are living descendants of C.G. Hurd who would be more than a little curious where and how he ended up.

I'm not certain we are going to be able to find an accident report by the police.  It has sounded to me like he just bumped into a support railing.  No other cars were involved, I don't know if they would have called the police in the 30s for something like that.  IMO he was just a little drunk.  He had gone there for dinner and stayed until 11:00 pm... Then hits a railing.. However, I think if he were planning to commit suicide.  They would have found the car.  Say, he jumped in the ocean or off a bridge.....car there.  Even more logically, to me at least, he would have taken the car home to his wife.  He would have let her have it and say taken a cab to the ocean.  ?????    What I would like to see is if the car was ever found........

As for his twin, I firmly believe they knew where he had gone and their intention was to enable him to do so.  You can see what the newspaper reporting was like in that day.  All that personal chat about Marie Louise's suitor.  Her business went right out there on the street.....   And nothing more than two articles on her husband's disappearance.  Nah, that's not right.  There has to be a reason for their silence.


#32    petermattson

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 31 August 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I somehow missed your post above.   Maybe Mary Louise just had that effect on men ! LOL   I think the suicide is just a coincidence.


I'm not certain we are going to be able to find an accident report by the police.  It has sounded to me like he just bumped into a support railing.  No other cars were involved, I don't know if they would have called the police in the 30s for something like that.  IMO he was just a little drunk.  He had gone there for dinner and stayed until 11:00 pm... Then hits a railing.. However, I think if he were planning to commit suicide.  They would have found the car.  Say, he jumped in the ocean or off a bridge.....car there.  Even more logically, to me at least, he would have taken the car home to his wife.  He would have let her have it and say taken a cab to the ocean.  ????? What I would like to see is if the car was ever found........

As for his twin, I firmly believe they knew where he had gone and their intention was to enable him to do so.  You can see what the newspaper reporting was like in that day.  All that personal chat about Marie Louise's suitor.  Her business went right out there on the street.....   And nothing more than two articles on her husband's disappearance.  Nah, that's not right.  There has to be a reason for their silence.

Couple questions:

1. The timeline I've seen everywhere is that he left the restaurant at 9 pm, which doesn't mean he wasn't drunk but I wanted to clarify.
2. How is it we know about the accident if there was no report? Eye witness accounts? That would have to mean that people recognized him or wrote down his license plate and called it in to the police, which brings us back to a police report. Am I missing something?


#33    Vincennes

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 03:05 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 31 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Couple questions:

1. The timeline I've seen everywhere is that he left the restaurant at 9 pm, which doesn't mean he wasn't drunk but I wanted to clarify.
2. How is it we know about the accident if there was no report? Eye witness accounts? That would have to mean that people recognized him or wrote down his license plate and called it in to the police, which brings us back to a police report. Am I missing something?

My mistake, I looked at the one with military time at 21:00 and translated that as 11:00 - Just stupid that's all !

I did interpret it as eye witness accounts because the time was again stated at 21:00. So he had just left the restaurant.  I took it that he was then recognized in his car as just having left.  Maybe....Maybe not ....  The license number the wife would most certainly have had.

Perhaps going to the New York police and just asking them if they completed accident reports back then on minor accidents and where those records can be accessed would be helpful.


#34    petermattson

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 07:39 PM

Knowing if the car was found would help a lot.


#35    Vincennes

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:32 AM

I came across this site regarding the Somerset Man.  This guy thinks what he sees is due to photo shop.  I'm posting it because the three Xs closest to the ear is what I noticed and thought they looked like a repair done by a pretty adequate surgeon considering the time period...  You've probably all seen it but just in case you haven't because it's the first time it "popped" for one of my searches...

http://tamamshud.blo...re-real-or.html


#36    petermattson

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 01 September 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

I came across this site regarding the Somerset Man.  This guy thinks what he sees is due to photo shop.  I'm posting it because the three Xs closest to the ear is what I noticed and thought they looked like a repair done by a pretty adequate surgeon considering the time period...  You've probably all seen it but just in case you haven't because it's the first time it "popped" for one of my searches...

http://tamamshud.blo...re-real-or.html

I'm glad people are keeping the case "alive" in as many ways as possible (here is one site devoted to deciphering the code and identifying Somerton http://www.ciphermys...hers/tamam-shud)
However, the notion of a "photoshopped" postmortem picture doesn't make a lot of sense. For one thing, there is another shot, straight-on from the front, so that photo would have to be doctored as well. Also, there was an autopsy report that backs up a lot of what we can see in the photos. I think doctoring the pictures would risk bringing more attention to the case, which is not what "they" would want to do. There are enough mysteries in this case already and I think adding something like this is distracting from what we "know" and can actually work with.

That said, I find this recent news compelling: The Australian Attorney-General has refused a request to exhume the body of Somerton because there needs to be "public interest reasons that go well beyond public curiosity or broad scientific interest". There is a petition you can sign (you might need to be Australian) to get the body exhumed but it seems like this is a dead end (pun intended!), even though it seems like an obvious way to solve a mystery that has been puzzling many people for many years.

Edited by petermattson, 01 September 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#37    petermattson

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:17 PM

Although there is no known connection between the Charles G. Hurd missing persons case and the mystery of the Somerton Man, I thought I would share a link about the latter for those interested in all things unknown. A blogger is writing a book about the Somerton Man and though his writing is quite cryptic, it's a fun read. Seems he thinks he's found the answer to many of the questions and plans to turn it into a book.

Clicky:
http://tomsbytwo.com/


#38    petermattson

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

Charles Gazzam Hurd was employed by Dows Estates Inc. at the time of his disappearance and since I am pursuing any and all leads related to the case I looked into the company. You can read more about the "old money" family that ran Dows Estates via the link at the bottom. If someone wanted him to disappear or he was running away after committing some type of financial crime (embezzlement, fraud, extortion, etc.) it would most likely have involved Dows Estates.

"Edward Kellogg Dunham, Jr. (1901-1951), was graduated from Harvard University in 1922, and worked as assistant manager for the Corn Exchange Bank (his great-grandfather's institution) in New York through the 1920s. After that, much of his time was occupied with other financial activities as treasurer of Dows Estates (established with the estate of his grandparents) and as trustee of his mother's estate."

http://asteria.fivec...0_bioghist.html


#39    Vincennes

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 03 September 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Charles Gazzam Hurd was employed by Dows Estates Inc. at the time of his disappearance and since I am pursuing any and all leads related to the case I looked into the company. You can read more about the "old money" family that ran Dows Estates via the link at the bottom. If someone wanted him to disappear or he was running away after committing some type of financial crime (embezzlement, fraud, extortion, etc.) it would most likely have involved Dows Estates.

"Edward Kellogg Dunham, Jr. (1901-1951), was graduated from Harvard University in 1922, and worked as assistant manager for the Corn Exchange Bank (his great-grandfather's institution) in New York through the 1920s. After that, much of his time was occupied with other financial activities as treasurer of Dows Estates (established with the estate of his grandparents) and as trustee of his mother's estate."

http://asteria.fivec...0_bioghist.html

This is a really interesting find!  I had searched Dow Estates and hadn't been able to find a thing.  I also think the possibility of financial problems there seem to be possible, a thought that needs to be considered.  I did found the fact that Charles worked there in the 1930 census.  Although I couldn't quite understand the position he held.  It is shown on the census as "Asst. Secretary."  Now I'm sure that didn't mean a lowly secretary as we think of it today but I just wanted to note the part I was able to find.

The information on Dow Estates is also very enlightening in view of the address which was 10th Block of Williams St. NY NY, That comes up at almost the tip of the east side of the Wall Street area of NY, almost opposite to the east of where the WTC sat.

From there Charles' hotel, Kenmore Hall Hotel, was at 23rd and Lexington which is like straight up Park Ave. on the east side of NY, then on up to the restaurant which we are just told was at 54th St.  This area came up for me as the "Ziegfeld restaurant" district.  Lots of restaurants and also in just about straight up from the hotel.  Then his accident 3rd and 37th would be almost a straight drive south, possibly on the way back to his hotel.  My only question in looking at Charles' route that night was that he had really gone what would be considered quite a distance in those days just to have dinner.  That thought brought me to, he went quite a distance from almost the tip of Manhattan to half way up it to the most prominent show/nightclub area.  Where he had to expect meals, etc. was going to cost more without enough money and had to cash a "small" check?

I am also going to post below a couple of the links I have found in Ancestory.com. just to record them.  I don't think anyone that does not have a membership will be able to open them entirely; however, I still wanted to record the links:

This is the census record of Marie's family in 1930:


http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Tell+C&gsfn_x=NP_NN_NIC&gsln=Schrieber&gsln_x=NS_NP_NN&msydy=1930&msypn__ftp=Short+Hills%2c+Essex%2c+New+Jersey%2c+USA&msypn=7834&msypn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c1652393%7c0%7c2%7c3244%7c33%7c0%7c988%7c7834%7c0%7c&cpxt=0&catBucket=rstp&uidh=xhp&cp=12&mssng0=Marie+L&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=4298598&db=1930usfedcen&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1

It's an interesting census.  Marie's family home was valued at $250,000 in 1930.  Converted today that would be $3,650,000.00.  Her father and her mother were noted as having German and Swiss parents.  Although her father is only recorded as being 50 yrs. old at the time of this census.  It says he has no occupation,  money, money, money.  Their live-in maid was Swiss.


This is what I found on her brother, also Tell C.. Jr. census 1940


http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=ms_r_f-2_s&gsfn=Tell+C&gsfn_x=NP_NN_NIC&gsln=Schrieber&gsln_x=NS_NP_NN&msydy=1940&msypn__ftp=Short+Hills%2C+Essex%2C+New+Jersey%2C+USA&msypn=7834&msypn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C1652393%7C0%7C2%7C3244%7C33%7C0%7C988%7C7834%7C0%7C&cpxt=0&catBucket=rstp&uidh=xhp&cp=12&mssng0=Marie+L

Tell C Jr's occupation is listed as representative for a steamship line.  His wife is Pamela, who was Pamela Prime, also a socialite.  They had stepped down the ladder a bit with a home valued at only $40,000.  Converted today it came to $645,000.  A live-in maid, of course.

There is another brother a Van Zandt Schrieber who married another socialite.  However, I haven't finished researching him.

Neither of Marie's parents appear again in the 1940 census.  I haven't found obits yet, but they seem to both be gone by 1940. I thought Marie might have gone to live with one of her family members with Charles C. gone but I nothing shows in the census that she was with them.

Edited by Duncansmom, 03 September 2013 - 06:07 PM.


#40    petermattson

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 03 September 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

This is a really interesting find!  I had searched Dow Estates and hadn't been able to find a thing.  I also think the possibility of financial problems there seem to be possible, a thought that needs to be considered.  I did found the fact that Charles worked there in the 1930 census.  Although I couldn't quite understand the position he held.  It is shown on the census as "Asst. Secretary."  Now I'm sure that didn't mean a lowly secretary as we think of it today but I just wanted to note the part I was able to find.

The information on Dow Estates is also very enlightening in view of the address which was 10th Block of Williams St. NY NY, That comes up at almost the tip of the east side of the Wall Street area of NY, almost opposite to the east of where the WTC sat.

From there Charles' hotel, Kenmore Hall Hotel, was at 23rd and Lexington which is like straight up Park Ave. on the east side of NY, then on up to the restaurant which we are just told was at 54th St.  This area came up for me as the "Ziegfeld restaurant" district.  Lots of restaurants and also in just about straight up from the hotel.  Then his accident 3rd and 37th would be almost a straight drive south, possibly on the way back to his hotel.  My only question in looking at Charles' route that night was that he had really gone what would be considered quite a distance in those days just to have dinner.  That thought brought me to, he went quite a distance from almost the tip of Manhattan to half way up it to the most prominent show/nightclub area.  Where he had to expect meals, etc. was going to cost more without enough money and had to cash a "small" check?

I'm a visual person but is the question why Charles would drive so out of his way to eat at a restaurant? I wonder if he was meeting someone there? New lady friend? Someone who was helping him disappear? Good find!


#41    petermattson

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:58 PM

A little more on E.K. Dunham Jr., who was running Dows Estates at the time when Charles worked there:

Edward Kellogg Dunham Jr., a financier in New York City, was also involved in the development of Mount Desert Island.

Mount Desert Island was a popular vacation spot off the coast of Maine for the VERY wealthy (Rockefellers, etc.) in the northeast during this period. Could Charles have "disappeared" there with the help of his boss?  I'm grasping at straws here but what if Charles was on the run (maybe explains eating at a restaurant so far from home and work and the subsequent car crash [a car chase]). It seems Mount Desert Island would be the perfect, secluded hideout.
Many of the large estates burned in a massive fire there in 1947. The fire was so epic it made international news at the time.

http://maineanencycl...nt-desert-fire/

At the very least, my story about Charles' disappearance is starting to write itself...


#42    petermattson

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 06:05 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 03 September 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

A little more on E.K. Dunham Jr., who was running Dows Estates at the time when Charles worked there:

Edward Kellogg Dunham Jr., a financier in New York City, was also involved in the development of Mount Desert Island.

Mount Desert Island was a popular vacation spot off the coast of Maine for the VERY wealthy (Rockefellers, etc.) in the northeast during this period. Could Charles have "disappeared" there with the help of his boss?  I'm grasping at straws here but what if Charles was on the run (maybe explains eating at a restaurant so far from home and work and the subsequent car crash [a car chase]). It seems Mount Desert Island would be the perfect, secluded hideout.
Many of the large estates burned in a massive fire there in 1947. The fire was so epic it made international news at the time.

http://maineanencycl...nt-desert-fire/

At the very least, my story about Charles' disappearance is starting to write itself...

I wonder what the usual route from NYC to Mount Desert Island would have been in 1937... ferry ... small plane ...?


#43    petermattson

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

View Postbrlesq1, on 28 August 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Maybe his family wanted him to disappear, and he did.


Any theories on why his family would want that?


#44    Vincennes

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:37 AM

Sorry that we have crossed messages so often !  Sketches are beautiful !   You are kinder than Lautrec but I am proud that I saw the VanGogh influence I am, I am...... Ha, I know that means a lot from this grandma in Podunk, Ohio !!!   I'm also going to go on to say here that I think this period of time could  use a little of the Lautrec insanity.  Okay, you can just say, "You are an idiot" and go on, enough said.....

Hey, Peter, just for the record.  My name is Ann, right here in Podunk, Ohio but I am here in this journey after 10 years in outside Chicago in Oak Brook and 12 outside Detroit in the advertising business...in the automotive advertising business in its hey day...Oh yeah,  LOL  the stories I could tell  !  

Before I say good night to prepare for tomorrow's search, I have to add that I recognize some of the scars on the Somerton man because I have had that work done.  After that, when you know where to look,  it has always been my hobby to watch the stars and look for the scars.  Let me tell you, Keanu Reeve's, belly button is right there in the middle of his chin and that's way back when he did the Mattrix.  I do recognize those scars...   I couldn't figure out why because they are certainly not there because of a face lift... but an injury or burn... maybe.  If you look the ....never mind... I'll try to keep focused....

Property records...I would like to first isolate just who in the heck Tell's family was but maybe I'll look first, then see what I need to find a match to...........Heck, we don't have the Rockefellers' in this yet !!!


#45    Vincennes

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:47 PM

I came across this video of New York City, 1938.  Seems like it was done as a promo for movie audiences.  This is how Charles would have last seen New York.  It comes very close to his locations.








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