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Justice row sours EU-Croatia ties

croatia josip perkovic european arrest warrant eaw eu penalties

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#1    Still Waters

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:45 PM

The EU's newest member state, Croatia, faces possible EU penalties because of its refusal to implement a European Arrest Warrant (EAW) issued by Germany.

Croatia joined the EU on 1 July and in late June it adopted a law making EAWs valid only for crimes committed after August 2002.

Germany wants Croatia to hand over Josip Perkovic, a former Yugoslav intelligence agent suspected over the 1983 murder of a Croatian dissident.

The EU Commission is studying the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-23847788

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#2    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:58 PM

Justice must prevail. I hope he will be sent to Germany. Although Im not expert in law. There are problems with sovereignty.

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#3    stevewinn

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:13 PM

croatia only signed up for crimes committed after 2002. the Germans case is from 1983. I think both are in the right. Germany for pursuing the case, but also for croatia ain't broken any rules.

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#4    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:11 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 27 August 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

croatia only signed up for crimes committed after 2002. the Germans case is from 1983. I think both are in the right. Germany for pursuing the case, but also for croatia ain't broken any rules.

Usualy we wrote Croatia with capital C. Its England. Not england.

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#5    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:26 PM

Former Yugoslavian “intelligence” really did execute people, at home and in the West, and that’s the ugly but easy part.
Complications start when the same people who worked for the former Yugoslavia switched sides (or did they?) and started working for the rising new political power, using the same methods.

So, if Perković is guilty and it is proven, he will drag whole structure along with him.
Since said structure is no longer in power and was never political option of my personal choice ( :D ) I can’t find enough willpower to seriously think of reasons why we shouldn’t extradite him.

The only possible logical explanation would be setting up a principle of not extraditing anyone for anything before said 2002, because of very unpleasant and extremely bizarre experiences with Serbia taking old JNA (ex-Yu military) warrants seriously. They basically wanted to trial Croats for resisting said JNA, according to warrants issued by military courts of the aggressor at the time of war, back in 1990s.
But that travesty is pretty much over, I doubt Serbia will try that again, unless someone in the government was informed something along these lines is about to start again.  

Frankly, I’m not sure and there’s amazing lack of interest for that case in Croatia. No one is sure what’s going on and no one really cares.

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#6    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 06:42 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 27 August 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

.  Frankly, I’m not sure and there’s amazing lack of interest for that case in Croatia. No one is sure what’s going on and no one really cares.

UDBA is going on. Thats whats going on.

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#7    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 27 August 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

UDBA is going on. Thats whats going on.

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I’m trying to be fair and not convict the man before the court does, but if we were talking privately, at the table, not publicly on the Internet, I’d agree with you.
Clearing that case up is in Croatian interest even more than it is in German interest.

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#8    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 27 August 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

I’m trying to be fair and not convict the man before the court does, but if we were talking privately, at the table, not publicly on the Internet, I’d agree with you.
Clearing that case up is in Croatian interest even more than it is in German interest.

Yes but...

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To say the things he truly feels and not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows and did it my way!

Frank Sinatra, I did it my way.

Im not affraid to say what birds on tree knows. Its common knowledge. :tu:

Look Elimination list
http://en.wikipedia...._Administration

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Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 27 August 2013 - 07:21 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#9    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 07:50 PM

It’s common knowledge up to the period Wiki has covered, but not after it.
The problem probably are the ties of UDBA people with people who pose as great Croatian patriots even today.  
See, the current prime minister is from SDP (left, always accused of lack of patriotism by the right), and Perković was linked with people from HDZ (they say centre, right populists if you ask me, very loud about patriotism) so there’s no logic in delaying and complicating the extradition.
Unless SDP is so courteous they are trying to protect few fine members of HDZ from exposing their recent ugly past. Makes no sense and is redundant, because Vladimir Šeks, the most famous HDZ member that was also in UDBA, already shrugged the accusations off with "I was double agent".

Screw it, he was double. Triple. Multiple.

It will be interesting to watch it unfold if it does unfold and if it does, it will be another thing we have Germany to thank for.

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#10    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 10:18 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 27 August 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

It’s common knowledge up to the period Wiki has covered, but not after it.
The problem probably are the ties of UDBA people with people who pose as great Croatian patriots even today.  
See, the current prime minister is from SDP (left, always accused of lack of patriotism by the right), and Perković was linked with people from HDZ (they say centre, right populists if you ask me, very loud about patriotism) so there’s no logic in delaying and complicating the extradition.
Unless SDP is so courteous they are trying to protect few fine members of HDZ from exposing their recent ugly past. Makes no sense and is redundant, because Vladimir Šeks, the most famous HDZ member that was also in UDBA, already shrugged the accusations off with "I was double agent".

Screw it, he was double. Triple. Multiple.

It will be interesting to watch it unfold if it does unfold and if it does, it will be another thing we have Germany to thank for.

To tell you the truth I was not aware that Perković was linked with HDZ. But...even so, if Peković end up in Germany he will open Pandoras box. Which SDP dont want.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 27 August 2013 - 10:19 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#11    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:31 PM

Here’s a short story:
in 1991 Josip Perković was appointed assistant to Gojko Šušak (Croatian minister of defence at that time) and chief of SIS (Croatian intelligence agency). No less. Because he (Perković, that is) was experienced in... what to call it... intelligence. He worked in the same branch during ex-Yu, until it fell.
It wasn’t said, but I bet he used the Šeks’s “I was double agent” excuse :lol:
Maybe they were, you never know :rofl:
Anyway, SIS split into two rival fractions and the other fraction accused Perković of being involved in murder of Bruno Bušić. I guess you know who he was. So president at that time, Tuđman, relieved Perković from duty in 1992 but returned him to the similar position (advisory to Šušak) in the very next year.
Turbulent, huh?
All that time Perković has status of defender in combat sector (people who sat in the office during war had status of defenders in non-combatant sector, naturally). Maybe he was fighting something in his office, you never know.

Anyway, Croatian patriots Ante Paradžik and Blaž Kraljević, as well as short list of other people, were ambushed and murdered in that period and the perpetrators are unknown, as unknown as the one that has ordered the murders, and have soon died in car accidents or were ambushed themselves.  
Pastorally idyllic.
It all lingers in the air and people know what they don't know, but officially it almost didn’t happen. Almost.


Now, the murderous communist past is something that just won’t go away, but SDP is actually the party with low percentage of former communist officials or UDBA agents. How so? They are left? Yes, but they are just ordinary, boring, urban left and their applied politics (they’re currently in power) is totally capitalist if not libertarian *shakes left tentacle in the air*  
All the mud of decomposing commie regime took refuge in HDZ. I kid you not. From Tuđman down, almost all important faces in HDZ were “drugovi funkcionari” and Perković was even “drug milicionar” :lol:

Croatia had her Savka, Tripalo, Gotovac, true patriots and civilized people with remarkably clean conscience but it was will of higher power that Tuđman, man easily manipulated and vulnerable to pressure with his very communist past, is offered to Croats as the leader of the second Croatian spring.  
The team he gathered was not unexpected... Mesić was there too.
Today accused by undead HDZ as one of UDBA agents, Mesić back in the early 1990s was one of the pillars of HDZ.
So... frankly, if I was with HDZ I have no idea how could I possibly spin myself out of this.

Now, what young Milanović, current prime minister, is doing with this extradition is the question of the month. If not of the year.  
Maybe trying to avoid bringing society into moral collapse :lol:
Like there’s anything about our politicians that could shock us.
Oh, oh, that reminds me... remember Men in Black, that movie about aliens disguised as humans? So, in the old Feral Tribune, now deceased beacon of free journalism in Croatia, they published list of characters from that movie and among them photo of Zdravko Tomac, another local politician. And it was signed with “Zdravko Tomac” as the name of the species :lol: Fifteen or so years ago and I’m still laughing when I think of it...  
What I wanted to say is that discovering that any of them is literally an alien wouldn’t surprise me. Of course I’m not surprised with their double and triple loyalties.
Floaters. That’s what they are.
True believers are dead, murdered in ambush or dropped silently from old age and disappointment.
Neka im je laka hrvatska zemlja.

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#12    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

That was brief. :tu:

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#13    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:28 PM

Good news!
50 minutes ago Croatian prime minister Zoran Milanović has announced the law that forbids extraditions in period prior to 2002 will be changed.
This means Perković will be extradited to Germany and trialed for murder of Croatian dissident Stjepan Đureković.

Now the silly part, you know by now there has to be the silly part too :D
Our prime minister asked Jose Manuel Barroso to intervene and protect our apparently shy pm from attacks of Viviane Redding and her spokesperson Mina Andreeva :lol: (who were in charge of coordination of implementation of EAW... ew, bureaucratic language, breaks my brain...)
OMG, poor Zoki, are you a martyr of what :lol:

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#14    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

And last night he stated: "Ne bu išlo." On English: "Not going to work."
Although I liked to watch "Much Ado About Nothing" directed by martyr Zoki. It was amusing.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo, 28 August 2013 - 09:59 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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