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Ancient Aliens

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#136    Rlyeh

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:03 PM

View Postcladking, on 29 October 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Try looking at the evidence again while imagining that there must have been aliens. You can
see evidence for aliens everywhere if you look for it.
This is known as confirmation bias.

Quote

if you just keep digging you can even find some pretty good quality evidence for aliens.  There
is no good quality evidence for ramps.
Ramps exist, people have built them throughout history. Where is your aliens? No evidence exists for them.


#137    seeder

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:07 PM

View PostSkithia, on 30 October 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I think one of the main problems I have with AA theory is that if they were here - all over the world involved in all these prolific building projects, manipulating the human race for thousands of years - where are they since we achieved global communication and satellites? we have had the ability to film moving objects for a really long time now and almost as long we have been able to observe our close space in amazing detail with it all recorded on computers - where did they go? Why would they go to all the trouble of getting ancient man to build massive vanity projects then just shuffle off?

another thing to remember is, the entire AA theory didn't really exist until the book 'Chariots of the Gods' , Quite literally, one man put the idea of the AA in everyones heads. The AA series of course, tend to mostly reference, directly or indirectly, Von Danikens theories. Who was also convicted of fraud and even wrote one of his books while in jail... and who has never had any formal training in anything remotely connected to proper archaeology

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#138    shaddow134

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:30 PM

View Postseeder, on 30 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

another thing to remember is, the entire AA theory didn't really exist until the book 'Chariots of the Gods' , Quite literally, one man put the idea of the AA in everyones heads. The AA series of course, tend to mostly reference, directly or indirectly, Von Danikens theories. Who was also convicted of fraud and even wrote one of his books while in jail... and who has never had any formal training in anything remotely connected to proper archaeology


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#139    Myles

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:43 PM

Try imagining that giant ants built the large ancient structures.    It's easy if you try.


#140    seeder

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostMyles, on 30 October 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Try imagining that giant ants built the large ancient structures. It's easy if you try.

Is that the "ancient ant"  theory btw? :lol:

They were good, the ancient ones, but todays termites build some truly huge structures, without levers, rollers, ramps or pulleys, of course, they had no blueprints either...yet look... how the heck do they do it?  

No wait I know, aliens helped them

Posted Image


Posted Image



ANT HENGE!!

Posted Image



So it just goes to show what can happen if you have a few thousand or many thousand workers to do the job... and plenty of time and resources

So...if ants/termites can build HUGE structures, why not man? Are we dumber than the ant?


But forget all that, give any young kid a pile of blocks to play with, and they soon learn that building things in a certain way allows for greater stability, without anyone showing them how to either

Posted Image


:tu:


.

Edited by seeder, 30 October 2013 - 06:56 PM.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#141    kmt_sesh

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:21 PM

View Postseeder, on 30 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

*Snip*

Now for the second bolded bit There's more evidence for aliens than there is for ramps

Really? Please present all of the evidence then. Ive been looking into the entire field for many many years, my usual haunt is the ET forums, naturally enough, and many many clips, pics, stories etc - have been raked over, again and again and you know what? No evidence of Aliens visiting earth has ever existed, so pls, show me your evidence and I will make the pair of us extremely rich almost overnight

I appreciate your well-reasoned post, seeder, and we are all familiar with the limitations of cladking's arguments, but the question in the above quote is the only one from your post that I would suggest cladking answer.

This discussion is about the television show Ancient Aliens. I've been trying to keep it on track, and am attempting to avoid devolving into people's pet theories in as much as they're not relevant to this discussion. Therefore, we don't need to discuss ramps, landscape geometry, or other matters not germane to the topic.

Thanks, all.

kmt_sesh

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#142    seeder

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:30 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 30 October 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I appreciate your well-reasoned post, seeder, and we are all familiar with the limitations of cladking's arguments, but the question in the above quote is the only one from your post that I would suggest cladking answer.

This discussion is about the television show Ancient Aliens. I've been trying to keep it on track, and am attempting to avoid devolving into people's pet theories in as much as they're not relevant to this discussion. Therefore, we don't need to discuss ramps, landscape geometry, or other matters not germane to the topic.

Thanks, all.

kmt_sesh

No worries,  :tu:

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#143    cladking

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 30 October 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

This is known as confirmation bias.

NO!!!

Confirmation bias is looking for evidence of things you already believe.

Confirmation bias is missing the four pieces of good evidence for aliens in the post you quoted.

Confirmation bias is having your mind made up.

Quote

Ramps exist, people have built them throughout history. Where is your aliens? No evidence exists for them.

Ramps have been debunked.  Aliens are just not well evidenced.  Maybe they didn't want to be well evidenced
and took steps to not be well evidenced.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#144    cladking

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:40 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 30 October 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I appreciate your well-reasoned post, seeder, and we are all familiar with the limitations of cladking's arguments, but the question in the above quote is the only one from your post that I would suggest cladking answer.

This discussion is about the television show Ancient Aliens. I've been trying to keep it on track, and am attempting to avoid devolving into people's pet theories in as much as they're not relevant to this discussion. Therefore, we don't need to discuss ramps, landscape geometry, or other matters not germane to the topic.

Thanks, all.

kmt_sesh

I suppose I should read these posts in order.  Fortunately I didn't stray far in the last post.

Virtually all the evidence for "ramps" suggests ramps were not used while the evidence for
aliens is widespread and direct evidence.  There's a 124 page thread on exactly this topic
with hundreds of pieces of evidence;

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=133772

And this thread is woefully out of date since I've not added to it in years.  Believe me I see
more and more every day.  The very post that sparked the question has four high quality pieces
of evidence for aliens yet so far as I can determine there is no high quality evidence for ramps.

The pyramids exist and must have been built by some means.  It would make far more sense to
say "it mustta been aliens" than to say "it must have been ramps".

I don't know how they were built but no one will until real science is done for the first time since
1986.  One thing I believe I've essentially proven is that it was not ramps.  Certainly it has been
demonstrated that ramps are very improbable or that they are debunked.  That they must have
been used is disproven beyond question and that they must have been used is the best support
ramps had.

They did not use ramps so how were they made?

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#145    cladking

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

I'm not going to elaborate on this at this time since it's not directly related to
ancient aliens building pyramids but there is one somewhat compelling piece
of evidence suggesting that aliens were on earth before the pyramids were
built.  If true, they likely were gone by the time of pyramid construction.

Who knows!?!

Why should we ignore any evidence when there is so little of it?  Why should
we sit patiently and wait while Egyptology takes a 27 year vacation?

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#146    Quaentum

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:54 PM

View Postcladking, on 29 October 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

I just have to disagree a lot.

In the real world very few things are really certain and most of the ones we think are certain
are just things that have always worked a single way.  Some things are highly uncertain but
still people seem to have now doubt that their God is the only one that can provide salvation
or that tides are caused by the spinning of the earth.  Even if we knew someone was right a-
bout anything we'd still see that his knowledge is woefully incomplete and oddly expressed.
Now days physicists imagine the universe is crammed packed with an infinite number of earths
and each has pyramids constructed with ramps.  What do you suppose the odds are that this
theory* is accurate? This is putting the cart before the horse to an infinite degree.  Events are
determined solely by past events in every case.  Horses don't push carts, wise men don't walk
upside down, and time travel or future causation is bunk.  

It is most apparent someone is wrong about his certainty when evidence doesn't support his
convictions.  It is quite apparent that the conviction that pyramids were built with ramps is not
very well supported (I consider it entirely debunked).  Yet this seems to dissuade no one from
the belief that pyramids must have been built with ramps.  You say there's no evidence for al-
iens but this simply is not true.  There's more evidence for aliens than there is for ramps but
believers in spinning earths causing tides or their prophet being able to get them to heaven
just don't see the evidence for other things. Most people not only have only the beliefs they've
chosen to adopt but only a single perspective to see things from those beliefs.

Try looking at the evidence again while imagining that there must have been aliens. You can
see evidence for aliens everywhere if you look for it.  Then simply weigh that wevidence against
all the fact and I believe you'll see that aliens really do make more sense than ramps.  Indeed,
if you just keep digging you can even find some pretty good quality evidence for aliens.  There
is no good quality evidence for ramps.

Rather than dismissing aliens why not seek the evidence for them?  What would our knowledge
of the facts look like if levitation rays had been used.  Would there be reports that a piece of pa-
per was attached to the stones and then they flew to the pyramid?  Might ancient sources have
said stones flew 300' at a time? Might they have spoken of flying boats?

* this isn't a real theory because it is the result of math and thought experiments but many cos-
mologists believe this nonsense now.

For sake of discussion let us imagine aliens while looking at the evidence and specifically let us look at the Great Pyramid.  The aliens we will use will be the advanced technology type of alien.

Quarrying:

If an advanced race were quarrying the blocks with advanced tools/methods the blocks would be smooth on all sides and of course they would all be the same size and shape at least throughout the same level.


Transportation/Building:

If an advanced race were involved in the building of the pyramid then they would be able, using their advanced technology to transport many blocks at one time and the time to move them from the quarry to the build site and even onto the current level would be extremely quick.

If the advanced race did not have the technology to precisely place the stone blocks they would have gotten them close and men could have finished the minor adjustments in placement.  I remember an article I read once where 12-20 men could move a 2 1/2 ton stone over a lubricated surface.  So let us say that once the stones were put on the current level you had 50 gangs of 15 men each moving the stones into position.  I chose 50 gangs since they would only need to make the minor adjustments in placement.

So now we are imagining aliens building the pyramids but what does the evidence show:

The blocks on a level are not all uniform and they have chisel marks.  Not evidence of an advanced race but more like how men would quarry the stones.

The 20 year time for building the pyramid has been used to try to say it wasn't enough time for humans to build the pyramid but an advanced race would be able to do it in far less time seeing that they would have been more advanced than we are now.

750 men to basically nudge the blocks into place is far fewer than what is shown by the worker camps that were discovered that could hold thousands of workers.

Of course with the advanced technology used to lift and place the blocks on each level there would be no need for ramps yet we find the remains of ramps.

In essence odd shaped blocks, ramps, worker camps that can hold thousands and chisel marks on the stones do not support aliens but do support humans where the construction of the pyramid is concerned.

It is important to note that we do not have any physical evidence of aliens anywhere near the site of the great pyramid but we do of ramps.  I understand saying that ramps were not used in the construction of the pyramids before any ramps were found however, would not the insistence on maintaining that same view after ramps were found be ignoring their discovery because it further supports the existing theories of how the pyramids were built while further alienating (no pun intended) the theory that aliens had a hand in it?

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#147    Babe Ruth

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:55 PM

View Postseeder, on 30 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

another thing to remember is, the entire AA theory didn't really exist until the book 'Chariots of the Gods' , Quite literally, one man put the idea of the AA in everyones heads. The AA series of course, tend to mostly reference, directly or indirectly, Von Danikens theories. Who was also convicted of fraud and even wrote one of his books while in jail... and who has never had any formal training in anything remotely connected to proper archaeology

Wow, nobody thought of light bending until Einstein came along, nobody thought of genes until Mendel came along, and nobody understood the right triangle until Pythagoras came along.  Holy cow, what's next?  Nuclear fusion?


#148    seeder

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 30 October 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Wow, nobody thought of light bending until Einstein came along, nobody thought of genes until Mendel came along, and nobody understood the right triangle until Pythagoras came along.  Holy cow, what's next?  Nuclear fusion?

By the time of Von Daniken, we already had well established science/astronomy/physics//medicine/archaeology/ and a notion of what is possible.. but....Von Dan chose to go against that with his own fantasies.. totally ignoring established facts and study and understandings...which left him wide open to professional criticism and rebuttal.. his motive was profit, not furthering scientific knowledge..... a total conman, and convicted of being so... typical ex con, he has all that time ...to cook up his next money making scam..

A while back...Someone came up with the idea that attaching magnets to the fuel lines in your car gave extra consumption, ie, more MPG... and countless thousands bought the magnets...... but they didnt work...(even tho they had testimonials to say they DID work) and when the con was made public knowledge, it didn't matter, the guy was already rich...

Which was the entire goal and motivation, of Von Dan. Who has, many times, back pedalled and said, publicly, that he DIDN'T SAY...it was aliens, and that he ONLY...posed the question of 'could it be'

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
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"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#149    Oniomancer

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:14 PM

View Postcladking, on 30 October 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

NO!!!

Confirmation bias is looking for evidence of things you already believe.

Confirmation bias is missing the four pieces of good evidence for aliens in the post you quoted.

Confirmation bias is having your mind made up.


A belief has to come from somewhere. There's is nothing in confirmation bias that states the belief being confirmed has to come out of thin air, which is rarely how they occur anyway. Opinion is almost always formed from prior information.

If we track back everybody's post's here, you'll be hard put to find many on the fringe side that don't come in expressing a dissatisfaction with the mainstream view from the get go. That's all that's needed to call bias.

Quote

Ramps have been debunked.  Aliens are just not well evidenced.  Maybe they didn't want to be well evidenced
and took steps to not be well evidenced.

I'll be succinct in deference to kmt's wishes. Actual existing ramps have been pointed to repeatedly and roundly ignored as if they didn't exist.
To date however, not one single solitary object which can be conclusively pointed to as either alien or positively representing an alien has been presented.  That says everything that needs to be.

"Apparently the Lemurians drank Schlitz." - Intrepid "Real People" reporter on finding a mysterious artifact in the depths of Mount Shasta.

#150    cladking

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:05 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 30 October 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

A belief has to come from somewhere. There's is nothing in confirmation bias that states the belief being confirmed has to come out of thin air, which is rarely how they occur anyway. Opinion is almost always formed from prior information.

Yes.  Even the stupidest beliefs are founded on other beliefs and information.  The most well founded
beliefs are exactly the same.  It has never been my contention that well founded beliefs are wrong, merely
that beliefs are wrong in and of themselves. All we have in this world is the evidence of our eyes and the
tools to look further or closer than the unaided eye.  We have logic but this is a puny tool to understand
our observations. Despite these handicaps humans have come a long way in controlling our enviroment
and making it to serve our needs.  This doesn't nmean everyones' beliefs are accurate.  It is patently ob-
vious that we all suffer from seeing what we expect.  We are more likely to note those things which sup-
port our beliefs than those that refute them.  This is simply the way we are wired.  Beliefs are conviction
and all actions are determined by these convictions so in addition to seeing what we expect, we go look-
ing for what we believe. We can't even see what we don't expect. Eye witnesses are almost always wrong
because crime is something no one expects.

These considerations aren't as important when data and evidence is widespread and deep.  We can under-
stand things like inertia because we can define and measure it and other than refinements this understand-
ing will be consistent over time.  But with the pyramids virtually no evidence exits.  Anyone can see that our
conclusions are based on very little factual knowledge and a great deal of belief.  These beliefs fit together
and make sense as a pattern because that's another thing people do naturally; seek patterns.  What all be-
lievers tend to forget is that these patterns are always constructs. They aren't real but a way of holding real-
ity in our minds.  The patterns are even self correcting to try to eliminate inconsistencies.

The problem is once we believe there will be almost no contradictory evidence allowed in our construct.  How
many people went back to my post seeking the four high quality evidential facts that support aliens in my old-
er post?  if you answered "zero", you're probably close.  People who believe in aliens saw it the first time and
skeptics will never see it.

This is why academia all believe the same thing.  This is why all people have always been a product of their
time and place.  Opinion can be correct and opinion won't totally blind a scientist but beliefs tend to.  Very few
people have an open mind even among the best scientists and NOBODY AT ALL can escape the effects
of confirmation bias.


Quote

If we track back everybody's post's here, you'll be hard put to find many on the fringe side that don't come in expressing a dissatisfaction with the mainstream view from the get go. That's all that's needed to call bias.

I don't disagree.

Quote

I'll be succinct in deference to kmt's wishes. Actual existing ramps have been pointed to repeatedly and roundly ignored as if they didn't exist.
To date however, not one single solitary object which can be conclusively pointed to as either alien or positively representing an alien has been presented.  That says everything that needs to be.

The question isn't whether or not ramps exist.  The question is who built the pyramid and how.

A few scattered and unconnected ramps have no bearing on the pyramid. Ramps are essentially dis-
proven by the 1986 gravimetric scan.  Until you canb show how ramps work this is all that needs to
be said except to remind you that ramps are a construct until they are proven and no attempt is being
made to prove them.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.





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