Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 3 votes

Ancient Aliens

aliens ancient

  • Please log in to reply
1875 replies to this topic

#241    ancient astronaut

ancient astronaut

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 901 posts
  • Joined:23 Jul 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:31 spooner street

  • It Is What It Is.

Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:38 PM

I am an ardent believer, but I must say, they have pretty much run out of ideas for the show and it is pretty much **** now.

[media='funny-pic'][/media]

#242    Swede

Swede

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,811 posts
  • Joined:30 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:51 PM

View Postzoser, on 02 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

...and what is indisputable evidence that stone was somehow softened.

Well the proof is there but people seem to evade it.

Zoser

At the risk of raising the justifiable ire of the moderators, let us address this matter once and for all.

To review:

Personal time has been and will continue to be limited. However, to return to certain critical aspects of your "speculation":

1) It would appear that you are attempting to assert that elements of the stonework in question are the product of altering the mass of the stone to a plastic and/or molten state. Correct?

2) It would also appear that, while not being overly specific, you are referring to primarily three lithic material types (limestone, sandstone, and andesite). Correct?

3) If the above evaluations are accurate, kindly inform us in regards to the speculated maximum temperature ranges/pressure gradients/cooling period involved in these processes as specifically applied to each of the three lithic material types.

4) You would appear to be quite confident in your assertions regarding wide-spread vitrification. Can we then presume that you have credible trace element and thin-section analyses to support these contentions? If so, kindly present such. And no, the notably lacking tidbits of De Jong do not qualify.

Swede- AA Theory is True.3-24-13. #10032

1) Yep

2) Yep

3) Hutchinson noticed intense heat as a result of his melting the iron block.  The power output was only low. The figures are unknown but vitrifications tends to suggest (for andesite) in excess of 1000 degrees.

4) I'm not at my pc at my pc at the moment and cannot copy links.  Google 'vitrification in Peru' and click on the PDF file.  This indicates the properties you refer to,  check in later if you cannot find the link.

With respect you are in no position to comment on the knowledge of Jan Peter de Jong.  He knows far more about the Peruvian artefacts than you ever will.

A little humility would go a long way since you have only just joined the discussion yes?

Zoser – AA Theory is True. 3-25-13. # 10086

The above exchange took place (as cited) this past March. Shortly after this exchange the topic was wisely closed by the moderators. This prevented further commentary on my part.

To continue:

In the above response you clearly indicate that it is your contention that the lithic materials sandstone, limestone, and andesite have been altered by their modification into a plastic/molten state.

The realities:

You are limited in the mechanisms/outcomes for your speculation:

1) Sandstone: Generally composed primarily of cemented quartz (silicate) grains. Heating sandstone (without pressure) to a plastic/molten state results in a fusing of the grains ie glass. Thus, the material would no longer be recognized or classed as sandstone.
  • True metamorphosis (as opposed to diagenesis) requires both heat (in excess of 200o C) and pressure (in excess of 300 MPa).
  • Metamorphosed sandstone is known as quartzite.
2) Limestone: Generally composed of 50-100% CaCO3, 0-50% MgCO3, 0-15% silicates (quartz). Due to its chemical/mineral composition, limestone does not respond well to excessive heat, becoming quite friable. In your scenario you would be left with a pile of rubble. This aspect is well demonstrated in the slaking process.
  • Metamorphosed limestone is known as marble.
3) Andesite: Andesite is an extrusive igneous material that lies between basalt and rhyolite. As such, and due to the conditions under which it is formed, it is quite heat tolerant and not particularly subject to metamorphism. Purely heating andesite to a molten state and then allowing it to cool would result in a different igneous material based upon the crystalline formation and size as determined by the cooling temperature and time.
  • Metamorphosing andesite would likely result in some form of greenschist, amphibolite, or granulite.
To summarize: Any speculation on your part that high levels of heat have been utilized to "mold" the lithic materials in question is demonstrably erroneous. Should such practices have been attempted, the materials involved would have been altered to states that would result in their re-classification, if not outright destruction (eg limestone).

As to your poorly substantiated "vitrification", this aspect has already been addressed by other contributors, with one possible exception. In the case of any exterior components one should also take into account the effects of aeolian abrasion. This is a rather common natural lithic modification in certain environmental regions. "Desert varnish" is also a potential causation for the misinterpreted surface features.

Addendum: Again, apologies for the above "derailment". However, the factors addressed above would appear to have continually resurfaced without a (from my perspective) more comprehensive critique.

Edit: Addendum.
  

Edited by Swede, 03 November 2013 - 10:36 PM.


#243    Babe Ruth

Babe Ruth

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Closed
  • 8,732 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:27North 80West

Posted 03 November 2013 - 09:57 PM

View Postseeder, on 30 October 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

By the time of Von Daniken, we already had well established science/astronomy/physics//medicine/archaeology/ and a notion of what is possible.. but....Von Dan chose to go against that with his own fantasies.. totally ignoring established facts and study and understandings...which left him wide open to professional criticism and rebuttal.. his motive was profit, not furthering scientific knowledge..... a total conman, and convicted of being so... typical ex con, he has all that time ...to cook up his next money making scam..

A while back...Someone came up with the idea that attaching magnets to the fuel lines in your car gave extra consumption, ie, more MPG... and countless thousands bought the magnets...... but they didnt work...(even tho they had testimonials to say they DID work) and when the con was made public knowledge, it didn't matter, the guy was already rich...

Which was the entire goal and motivation, of Von Dan. Who has, many times, back pedalled and said, publicly, that he DIDN'T SAY...it was aliens, and that he ONLY...posed the question of 'could it be'

Clearly, his imagination is much healthier and somehow more advanced than yours.

Magnets on the fuel lines is a silly example.  I'm aware of fraud and misrepresentation.  The government is in the business of that.

Once one understands that we are not alone in this cosmos, imagination is a good thing.


#244    spacecowboy342

spacecowboy342

    Traveler of both time and space

  • Member
  • 4,130 posts
  • Joined:22 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

  • I shall now proceed to entangle the entire area

Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:00 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 03 November 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Clearly, his imagination is much healthier and somehow more advanced than yours.

Magnets on the fuel lines is a silly example.  I'm aware of fraud and misrepresentation.  The government is in the business of that.

Once one understands that we are not alone in this cosmos, imagination is a good thing.
We may not be alone in the cosmos and imagination is a good thing but von Daniken's outright lies masquerading as research is inexcusable


#245    jaylemurph

jaylemurph

    "If we would know, then we would be more wisdomed."

  • Member
  • 9,549 posts
  • Joined:02 Nov 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA

  • "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make him think." Dorothy Parker

Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:03 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 03 November 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

We may not be alone in the cosmos and imagination is a good thing but von Daniken's outright lies masquerading as research is inexcusable

There always has been and always will be a thriving market for criminals to tell idiots the things they want to hear.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

Posted Image

Deeply venial

#246    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 14,101 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 03 November 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

Clearly, his imagination is much healthier and somehow more advanced than yours.


Clearly youre not familiar with the actual facts surrounding V-D who, in fact, copied the ideas of those before him, and just presented the ideas in a different way

“There are some remarkable parallels in Von Daniken's and Lovecraft's work” as “H. P. Lovecraft expounded the same theories in his Cthulhu Mythos stories back in the nineteen thirties.”

http://www.examiner....e-h-p-lovecraft

and

Prior to von Däniken's work, other authors had presented ideas of extraterrestrial contacts. Von Däniken failed to credit these authors properly or at all, even when making the same claims using similar or identical evidence.[13] The first edition of von Däniken's Erinnerungen an die Zukunft failed to cite Charroux's One Hundred Thousand Years of Man's Unknown History despite making very similar claims, and publisher Econ-Verlag were forced to add Charroux in the bibliography in later editions, to avoid a possible lawsuit for plagiarism.


and

That writing as careless as von Däniken's, whose principal thesis is that our ancestors were dummies, should be so popular is a sober commentary on the credulousness and despair of our times.[15]... I also hope for the continuing popularity of books like Chariots of the Gods? in high school and college logic courses, as object lessons in sloppy thinking. I know of no recent books so riddled with logical and factual errors as the works of von Däniken.[15]
    —Carl Sagan, Foreword to The Space Gods Revealed

http://en.wikipedia...._von_Däniken

:tu:   Next?


.

Edited by seeder, 03 November 2013 - 10:16 PM.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#247    spacecowboy342

spacecowboy342

    Traveler of both time and space

  • Member
  • 4,130 posts
  • Joined:22 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

  • I shall now proceed to entangle the entire area

Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:24 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 03 November 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

There always has been and always will be a thriving market for criminals to tell idiots the things they want to hear.

--Jaylemurph
Yeah, or to take advantage of naive thirteen year olds who don't realize people can get away with printing outright lies as truth. OK so I was a little gullible as a child. Maybe that's why I'm so skeptical now.


#248    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • 9,292 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 04 November 2013 - 02:36 AM

View Postseeder, on 03 November 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Him and his vitrified stone again. Do you know on the previous mad AA thread, he kept asking why the 'ancient' builders would 'vitrify'  the rock inside a cave... (because there is a cave that shows the apparent vitrification, especially on the roof inside)....and this was a major issue for him " WHY would they vitrify inside a cave"... "How did they do this" and over and over again like a broken record. he had no possible ideas how this could have happened, it must have been done by aliens using high heat lasers to get the rock into such a high heat state that when cooled it left a glassy shiny surface texture. "But why he asked, go to all the hard work and effort to vitrify INSIDE this place?

The question was asked repeatedly, the photos were posted endlessly...

Until that is, I explained the cave had been a kiln.. :lol:  you know, where they used HIGH HEAT to fire their bowls and pots....and you could sense, even thru the internet, that he had the slow realisation of what a total fool he had been. Classic zoser :clap:

Oh and heres his humanoids in space suits...just watch first 2 mins or so, more if you like

<<Snip>>
.

Vitrification of stones is attested in prehistoric Scottish forts. This is the consensus, so I imagine it's occurred elsewhere in the world. The question is, how did it happen? The idea that it must have been aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices, need not be taken seriously, of course. It does not take impossibly high temperatures to do this to masonry. Far from it. That said, while the Scottish sites are not fully explained, it could have resulted from assaults on the forts by enemy clans (or whatever the correct term might be for prehistoric Scotland).

Equally important is not to jump to conclusion. Ever. Photos have been posted of stones with a sheen or almost glossy appearance in some cases. Does this mean we must immediately jump to aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices? Of course it doesn't. Should we not explore the many other and more plausible explanations of ancient engineering with stone masonry? The buffing and polishing of stones was fairly commonplace. The aliens weren't even there at the building site. I suspect they were more busy rounding up humans for probing. :alien:

Posted Image
The evil overlord mummy moderator has spoken.

Visit My Blog!

#249    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Omnipotent Entity

  • 9,292 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 04 November 2013 - 02:43 AM

View PostSwede, on 03 November 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

At the risk of raising the justifiable ire of the moderators, let us address this matter once and for all.

To review:

Personal time has been and will continue to be limited. However, to return to certain critical aspects of your "speculation":

1) It would appear that you are attempting to assert that elements of the stonework in question are the product of altering the mass of the stone to a plastic and/or molten state. Correct?

2) It would also appear that, while not being overly specific, you are referring to primarily three lithic material types (limestone, sandstone, and andesite). Correct?

3) If the above evaluations are accurate, kindly inform us in regards to the speculated maximum temperature ranges/pressure gradients/cooling period involved in these processes as specifically applied to each of the three lithic material types.

4) You would appear to be quite confident in your assertions regarding wide-spread vitrification. Can we then presume that you have credible trace element and thin-section analyses to support these contentions? If so, kindly present such. And no, the notably lacking tidbits of De Jong do not qualify.

Swede- AA Theory is True.3-24-13. #10032

*Snip*
  


Ire? No.

But Swede's post provides an opportune moment for me to comment on something. I realize how heated things can get when certain posters bang heads, but the more mature thing to do is to remain level headed and civil. You can disagree with a poster and bring up what you believe to be his weaknesses, as long as it's in an appropriate and civil manner complete with a well-detailed summation of your own position. Swede's post is a very good example of this.

Where you will raise my ire is if you use posting for little more than to ridicule a poster with whom you disagree. Do not do that.

kmt_sesh

Posted Image
The evil overlord mummy moderator has spoken.

Visit My Blog!

#250    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 14,101 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 04 November 2013 - 08:55 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 04 November 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Vitrification of stones is attested in prehistoric Scottish forts. This is the consensus, so I imagine it's occurred elsewhere in the world. The question is, how did it happen? The idea that it must have been aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices, need not be taken seriously, of course. It does not take impossibly high temperatures to do this to masonry. Far from it. That said, while the Scottish sites are not fully explained, it could have resulted from assaults on the forts by enemy clans (or whatever the correct term might be for prehistoric Scotland).

Equally important is not to jump to conclusion. Ever. Photos have been posted of stones with a sheen or almost glossy appearance in some cases. Does this mean we must immediately jump to aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices? Of course it doesn't. Should we not explore the many other and more plausible explanations of ancient engineering with stone masonry? The buffing and polishing of stones was fairly commonplace. The aliens weren't even there at the building site. I suspect they were more busy rounding up humans for probing. :alien:

Exactly, and I also produced the following picture on the old thread, one caused by glacial polishing. It was assumed by some that Peru didn't have any ice, but it still has 3 glaciers and in the deep past of course much of the world was ice bound. Now such a shiny polished rock may have attracted the eyes of ancient builders who may want to use such a rock in a place of prominence


Posted Image

Hualcan glacier. Peru, one of 3

Posted Image



.

Edited by seeder, 04 November 2013 - 08:59 AM.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#251    laver

laver

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,367 posts
  • Joined:02 Jan 2013

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:16 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 04 November 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

Vitrification of stones is attested in prehistoric Scottish forts. This is the consensus, so I imagine it's occurred elsewhere in the world. The question is, how did it happen? The idea that it must have been aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices, need not be taken seriously, of course. It does not take impossibly high temperatures to do this to masonry. Far from it. That said, while the Scottish sites are not fully explained, it could have resulted from assaults on the forts by enemy clans (or whatever the correct term might be for prehistoric Scotland).

Equally important is not to jump to conclusion. Ever. Photos have been posted of stones with a sheen or almost glossy appearance in some cases. Does this mean we must immediately jump to aliens with lasers or heat rays or other such devices? Of course it doesn't. Should we not explore the many other and more plausible explanations of ancient engineering with stone masonry? The buffing and polishing of stones was fairly commonplace. The aliens weren't even there at the building site. I suspect they were more busy rounding up humans for probing. :alien:

As I understand it the explanation of vitrification of Scottish forts by assaults on the forts by enemy 'clans' has some weaknesses.
Cases of vitrification on the inside surfaces being one. It is also not a good way to get rid of the structure as is shown by the fact that they
are still there after thousands of years, about 60 examples some say.

So it seems possible that the vitrification had some other possibly ritual or spiritual significance, if of course not the work of 'aliens'.

A suggestion might be that if there was 'alien' or non-terrestrial influence on our planet thousands of years ago their means of transport may have
created very high temperatures on landing and take off which could have vitrified the surface beneath; or they may have had equipment capable of
vitrification of stone. This vitrification could then have been considered a sign of the 'Gods' to be replicated if possible in honour of these ancient
visitors.
Now I quite accept that this may be considered a very far fetched idea but worth a thought maybe because ancient myths tell us that 'fire'
was stolen from the 'Gods' but fire happens naturally and must have done from before human existence so there must possibly have been
something special about the 'fire' from the 'Gods' and this could have been the creation of very high temperatures that could melt the very
fabric of the Earth.


#252    Myles

Myles

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,493 posts
  • Joined:08 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 03 November 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Makes you wonder why these advanced aliens wouldn't have taught the builders of Pumapunku about arches or concrete or the forging of steel.

Or better yet.........................toilet paper.


#253    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 14,101 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:33 PM

Again some info posted on the old thread, and I quote:

"Plasma and electrical discharges hitting the surface of Earth may have been responsible for the vitrification (melting into crude glass) of ancient stone structures seen in some parts of the world, such as various hill forts in Scotland (to the right are some photos showing vitrification at an ancient Scottish hill fort, along with the ground plan of such a fort--the vitrification is shown by the dark shading).

http://www.robertsch...com/plasma.html

and a further read - and with pics of lightning hitting a fort/.structure
http://www.robertsch...suesept2010.pdf


and


"Some evidence suggests that on a few forts, the vitrification was done from within the wall, during construction. Such walls were usually built with solid stone facings on the inner and outer sides, with rubble filling in the center. During construction, fires could have been built in the center of the wall, covered with turf for insulation, and allowed to vitrify the stone faces. Rubble could then be filled in, and construction would move up to the next level where the process would repeat. Other vitrified walls show evidence that the fire was built against the outside of the wall, as Thorneycroft and Childe did in their test. Keep in mind also that Thorneycroft and Childe were archaeologists with minimal stone melting skills, while the men who vitrified the forts two and a half millennia before them were expert professionals whose knowledge was based on centuries of experience.

It's important to keep in mind that wherever an Iron Age fortification was under construction, the supporting infrastructure of workers and local people would certainly have included blacksmiths, whose furnaces of the day reached some 1300°C. There was no lack for expertise in the arts of building smelting fires or keeping them hot.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4326


.

Edited by seeder, 04 November 2013 - 12:34 PM.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#254    Skithia

Skithia

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 192 posts
  • Joined:05 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Brechin Scotland

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:37 PM

The forts arent exactly 'still there after thousands of years' - the vitrified bits are still there and a wall or two that you can tell was likely once a fort most likely of the stone and laced timber sort. No we dont know why they were fired but it is possible to vitrify this sort of construction with normal fire that sets the laced timber alight.

As for fire being from the gods - it didnt have to be special fire - one of the ways very primitive man would have first discovered fire could easily have been from lightning blasts that started fires - that they would have explained as fire from the gods surely?


#255    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 14,101 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:27 PM

View PostSkithia, on 04 November 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

The forts arent exactly 'still there after thousands of years' - the vitrified bits are still there and a wall or two that you can tell was likely once a fort most likely of the stone and laced timber sort. No we dont know why they were fired but it is possible to vitrify this sort of construction with normal fire that sets the laced timber alight.

As for fire being from the gods - it didnt have to be special fire - one of the ways very primitive man would have first discovered fire could easily have been from lightning blasts that started fires - that they would have explained as fire from the gods surely?


quote:   "So when the archaeologists study the vitrified forts and report that we don't know how they were made, all we're saying is that we don't know exactly what method was used. We're not saying that it is a surprising or inexplicable accomplishment. Any number of methods could have been used; we just don't know which. The vitrified rocks require about 1100°C to vitrify in the observed manner. So let's take a quick look at what various researchers have discovered"


This is a good read... persevere with reading the whole page pls

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4326


ending:  "This brings us to our final step, assessing what we've learned, and establishing a provisional conclusion. Like all science-based conclusions, it's provisional because it's always subject to new information that may arise. We've learned that the technology required to create the vitrified forts was not extraordinary. Nothing found at the sites requires any re-examination of the history of knowledge. The questions that do remain are sociological. Why were the forts vitrified, and who vitrified them? I'm happy to report that we don't know yet, and that this is one more item to add to our list of mysteries still to be solved.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"





Also tagged with aliens, ancient

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users