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Ancient Aliens

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#256    Kahn

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:29 PM

In response to seeder's post #253.  I was initially skeptical of the claim, but after reading the evidence and doing some more research on my own, I have changed my stance and find the vitrification entirely plausible.  It would be nice if more of the woo-woo crowd (as psyche101 would call them) would post such thought provoking, well researched articles (and no seeder, you're not woo-woo).

Historically, there have been instances of the use of fire by ancient man to modify the structure of rocks to make them more malleable.
http://www.mainlesso...ibal&story=alps (quite long, the reference is near the bottom of the page).

In response to swede's post #242, I have a correction.  Glass is not only present in the samples (http://www.sciencedi...305440308001489), but ferrous crystals embedded within the glass bubbles can be used as a means of dating the time at which the vitrification took place (http://www.sciencedi...305440307001938).

Cool!  I learned something new today.

Edited by Kahn, 04 November 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#257    seeder

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostKahn, on 04 November 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

In response to seeder's post #253.  I was initially skeptical of the claim, but after reading the evidence and doing some more research on my own, I have changed my stance and find the vitrification entirely plausible.  It would be nice if more of the woo-woo crowd (as psyche101 would call them) would post such thought provoking, well researched articles (and no seeder, you're not woo-woo).

Historically, there have been instances of the use of fire by ancient man to modify the structure of rocks to make them more malleable.
http://www.mainlesso...ibal&story=alps (quite long, the reference is near the bottom of the page).

In response to swede's post #242, I have a correction.  Glass is not only present in the samples (http://www.sciencedi...305440308001489), but ferrous crystals embedded within the glass bubbles can be used as a means of dating the time at which the vitrification took place (http://www.sciencedi...305440307001938).

Cool!  I learned something new today.

heres a schoolboy vitrifying/melting sand into crystals. Now the power he uses is NOTHING compared to a lightning or plasma strike. there are also vids oin the tube of power lines coming down in storms and melting road surfaces, leaving a vitrified effect after



But lets not get sidetracked on the processes of HOW... as my previous post stated, knowing what can cause it it is the easy bit, and its OK in science to say "we dont know something"...thats cool, and again, it doesn't imply aliens


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Edited by seeder, 04 November 2013 - 01:53 PM.

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#258    Kahn

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:59 PM

I would diverge from the plasma explanation, I found that rock vitrification was well within the capabilities of ancient man and can be used as an aid in dating a site!  No need for temperatures in excess of what a large charcoal fire could generate.  I also found it cool that the mica content of the rock could act as a catalyst to lower the temperature that vitrification takes place.


#259    Babe Ruth

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 02:21 PM

View Postseeder, on 03 November 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Clearly youre not familiar with the actual facts surrounding V-D who, in fact, copied the ideas of those before him, and just presented the ideas in a different way

“There are some remarkable parallels in Von Daniken's and Lovecraft's work” as “H. P. Lovecraft expounded the same theories in his Cthulhu Mythos stories back in the nineteen thirties.”

http://www.examiner....e-h-p-lovecraft

and

Wow, I remember reading some of Lovecraft's works decades ago, long before I ever heard of VD.  It's been too many years to recall whether there was similarities.

Otherwise, the hatred for VD by many posters is almost palpable.  Not giving credit to others for their ideas?  Is that like plagiarism?  Terrible fellow, that VD, bloody plagiarist that he is.

Otherwise, as is often the case when the AA theory comes up, it just seems like a rant against yet another personality that completely fails to address the message.  Kill the messenger, and I've already forgot what his message was, type of thing.  Again, I'm impressed in all the wrong ways.

Prior to von Däniken's work, other authors had presented ideas of extraterrestrial contacts. Von Däniken failed to credit these authors properly or at all, even when making the same claims using similar or identical evidence.[13] The first edition of von Däniken's Erinnerungen an die Zukunft failed to cite Charroux's One Hundred Thousand Years of Man's Unknown History despite making very similar claims, and publisher Econ-Verlag were forced to add Charroux in the bibliography in later editions, to avoid a possible lawsuit for plagiarism.


and

That writing as careless as von Däniken's, whose principal thesis is that our ancestors were dummies, should be so popular is a sober commentary on the credulousness and despair of our times.[15]... I also hope for the continuing popularity of books like Chariots of the Gods? in high school and college logic courses, as object lessons in sloppy thinking. I know of no recent books so riddled with logical and factual errors as the works of von Däniken.[15]
—Carl Sagan, Foreword to The Space Gods Revealed

http://en.wikipedia....ch_von_Däniken

:tu:   Next?


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#260    Harte

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostDBunker, on 03 November 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Why do you write your name in every post, when it says right over your avatar????
To get on your nerves, obviously.

Harte

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#261    stereologist

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:37 AM

Rocks can be polished by the mere sliding of one rock over another rock. Such surfaces are seen in slickensides.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Slickenside
http://www.geos.ed.a...ickensides.html
http://www.flickr.co...sil/3006259604/

Rocks that are quarried from an exposed fault zone have these polished surfaces which might be thought to represent melting by the casual observer.


#262    laver

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:58 AM

Brigantes Nation site says on the vitrification of Scottish forts -

'Based on the evidence to hand the most likely reason for vitrification must therefore be that it was part of a ceremonial or religious act, perhaps as dedicating the fort to a deity or to inspire the natives in time of war. A further reason could be to commemorate a significant event in the tribes history pertinent to the fort, such as a major defeat or victory.'

The possibiity that vitrification was seen as a 'sacred' dedication related to deities or maybe 'Ancient Aliens', as suggested in a previous post, is
still an open matter. Why would vitrification be seen as 'religious' unless is was done by or seen as a sign of the Gods or maybe ancient visitors ?
One thing is certain it would have been a major undertaking to achieve the temperatures required over large areas of walls of mainly Scottish forts
and some might say not possible to achieve by known methods without huge insulation of the walls.
But why do it ?


#263    Harte

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:12 AM

Because they could do it and the idea is cool.

Harte

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#264    Kahn

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:46 AM

Huh?  Why not "Because it makes it harder for anyone besieging the fort to dismantle the walls?"  No need for aliens, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, if you have enough heat to forge iron arrowheads, you easily have enough to vitrify sandstone or feldspar.  After all, you want the walls thin enough at the top so you can rain arrows, spears or whatever on your enemy outside without having to climb up on top, thereby exposing yourself to enemy fire.

For those folks that did not bother to follow all the links in my earlier post ...
Abstract

It is proposed that the vitrification in some Iron Age forts in NW Scotland can be explained through decomposition of micas (largely biotite) giving melts that react with or dissolve quartz and crystallise orthopyroxene and feldspars, so equating with the reaction biotite + quartz = sanidine + orthopyroxene + liquid. A sample of Moine semi-pelite has been experimentally melted at c. 850 °C demonstrating this breakdown reaction. A preserved thermal gradient across the sample reveals the progressive degradation of biotite towards the melting (upper) surface. Degradation is evident from the initial emphasis of mica cleavages in grains at the bottom of the sample, and then appearance and progressive increase in size of bubbles associated with biotite and melt towards the top of the sample. A chocolate-brown melt was produced as a coating on the upper surface and along micaceous layers. A near equivalent sample was located from the fort at The Torr that, whilst being more thoroughly affected by heat, with no unaffected biotite, preserved similar textures. Compositions of original Moine minerals are used to constrain the melts produced and melt evolution is tracked through quenched crystals. These include ternary feldspars as well as sanidine, spinels and orthopyroxene. Spot geochemical evidence demonstrates the heterogeneity of the melts, plus varying contributions of Ca and Na that could be attributed to the onset of reactions involving feldspars and other minerals from the original assemblage. It is thus concluded that a similar temperature to that of c. 850 °C derived in the experiment was reached in the vitrification process at The Torr in order to produce the glass observed.


#265    laver

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:44 AM

It seems that the vitrification may not have had any really practical advantages but is obviously considered by some studies
to have been a ceremonial or religious practice that was clearly quite widespread in Scotland for some reason.
By no means proof of Ancient Alien involvement or influence but as we don't know yet why the vitrification occured it might
be wise to keep an open mind.


#266    Kahn

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 12:06 PM

View Postlaver, on 06 November 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

It seems that the vitrification may not have had any really practical advantages but is obviously considered by some studies
to have been a ceremonial or religious practice that was clearly quite widespread in Scotland for some reason.
By no means proof of Ancient Alien involvement or influence but as we don't know yet why the vitrification occurred it might
be wise to keep an open mind.
And I'm just stating a very practical explanation for the same (Why is it not practical?).  Again, no need to build a fire against a wall to honor a deity (Have you heard or seen any similar examples of this practice anywhere else?). As you said, it might be wise to keep an open mind.  I'm open to either explanation, but logic guides me towards the simplest one verses the one with two very glaring unanswered questions.


#267    laver

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

I raised the vitrification of ancient Scottish sites in a question to a poster who was proposing that this could be an indication of Ancient Aliens
in South America.
I asked if he/she saw any link to the, mainly Scottish, examples of vitrification which I recalled were largely not explained.
Now I do not know if there might be some link between vitrification and ancient visitors to our planet Earth but since some observers believe
that this practice may have had a spiritual importance it is worth asking why this might have been the case thousands of years ago.


#268    seeder

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:18 PM

Anyone ever heard of Greek Fire? It was a highly flammable stuff flung at the enemy, and...it caught on (pun not intended) :lol:

quote:

Early thermal weapons were devices or substances used in warfare during the classical and medieval periods (approx 8th century BC until the mid-16th century AD) which used heat or burning action to destroy or damage enemy personnel, fortifications or territories.

Incendiary devices were frequently used as projectiles during warfare, particularly during sieges and naval battles; some substances were boiled or heated to inflict damage by scalding or burning. Other substances relied on their chemical properties to inflict burns or damage. These weapons or devices could be used by individuals, manipulated by war machines, or utilised as army strategy.


Devastation by fire was not only used as an offensive tactic; some countries and armies employed 'scorched earth' policies on their own land to deprive invading armies of all food and forage. Robert I of Scotland reacted to the English invasion of 1322 by launching punitive and diversionary chevauchées into north-west England, then retreating to Culross, burning as he went the Scottish lands which lay in the path of the English army. The English ran out of food and had to abandon the campaign.[8] Kitchener employed scorched earth tactics to subdue Boer forces in South Africa when three years of warfare had resulted in a stalemate.

http://en.wikipedia....thermal_weapons


Greek Fire
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Greek_fire


Again who can say for sure, except we know the ancients used variations of Greek fire. Every kid has seen old movies of soldiers in forts pouring boiling oil or tar down onto the enemies..  burning oil or tar is of course flammable and burns very hot



.
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Edited by seeder, 06 November 2013 - 02:21 PM.

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#269    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:34 PM

I think at this point in time we have established three things about the vitrification of stones:
  • It can be the result of natural phenomena


  • Both ancient and modern people can achieve it


  • There's no reason to go off the deep end of logic and attribute it to aliens
Couldn't we move on and talk about something else? I'm not saying this as a Moderator, mind you. The discussion just seems to have bogged down. It's no longer fanning my flames.

(Pun intended. :w00t: )

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#270    jaylemurph

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

View Postlaver, on 06 November 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

It seems that the vitrification may not have had any really practical advantages but is obviously considered by some studies
to have been a ceremonial or religious practice that was clearly quite widespread in Scotland for some reason.

Well, they had to do something before they figured out how to deep-fry a Mars bar. Why not vitrify stones?

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