Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity


  • Please log in to reply
134 replies to this topic

#16    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,327 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostCodemonger, on 01 September 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

The human mind, sadly, is the reason you are sitting at a computer and are able to type unflattering statements about Christianity and Catholicism. I think to put theology and smurfs in the same sentence undermines the capabilities of the human mind.  Back to the original post.

I thought the word Trinity is not directly in the new testament, but the concept is used to describe "father, the son and the holy spirit" which is actually in the bible.  Where does Mary come into play ?

Also Muhhamad was very mysogynistic, so it could be something he was using to help convert others to islam ... Just a thought.

I swear that my comment was not really a cheap blow. When I was reading through all the papers written by eminent priest I simply couldn't believe they allocate much of their brain power to research on...oh, well.

Now I know that people like you will never comprehend. But trust me, I felt really devastated when I was doing the small study. Even Trekkies and Warhammer nuts can come up with more useful ideas.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#17    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:35 AM

View Postambelamba, on 01 September 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I swear that my comment was not really a cheap blow. When I was reading through all the papers written by eminent priest I simply couldn't believe they allocate much of their brain power to research on...oh, well.

Now I know that people like you will never comprehend. But trust me, I felt really devastated when I was doing the small study. Even Trekkies and Warhammer nuts can come up with more useful ideas.

What will people like me never comprehend ? I'm not sure what your eluding to, please elaborate on what you are trying to say. I am just curious btw.

Edited by Codemonger, 02 September 2013 - 01:14 AM.


#18    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 25,045 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... No power in the verse can stop me...

Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:21 AM

View PostElfin, on 01 September 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

There is good evidence that the early church recognised God the Father, Mary the Mother and Jesus the Son as the original Trinity.
There is? What evidence would that be? The earliest textual records indicate a Father/Son/Spirit relationship. The worship of Mary has only ever been a minor sect that has almost universally been viewed as heretical (incidentally, Mohammed grew up in a region where such a heretical sect likely existed - from memory I think they were known as the Colyridians - hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).


Quote

Not only is this a direct equivalent of Osiris, Isis and Horus, whose primordial myth is the original model for all dying and resurrecting gods of the mystery schools, such as those of Mithras and Jesus, but it is even stated explicitly in the Koran that this is what Christians worship, and was roundly condemned by Muhammad.
As noted, Mohammed commenting on Mary does not indicate what the earliest believers thought - at best it indicates what a small sect of Christians in one isolated area during the seventh century AD believed.

For the rest, forgive me for not buying into Zeitgeist conspiracy propaganda.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 September 2013 - 01:23 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#19    ranrod

ranrod

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 726 posts
  • Joined:29 Aug 2009

Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 02 September 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

...The worship of Mary has only ever been a minor sect that has almost universally been viewed as heretical (incidentally, Mohammed grew up in a region where such a heretical sect likely existed - from memory I think they were known as the Colyridians - hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).
hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity?  Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her.  From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.


#20    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:59 AM

View Postranrod, on 02 September 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity?  Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her.  From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.

Edited by Elfin, 02 September 2013 - 09:00 AM.


#21    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,327 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 02 September 2013 - 12:50 PM

View PostElfin, on 02 September 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...then it's pretty obvious.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#22    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 25,045 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... No power in the verse can stop me...

Posted 02 September 2013 - 01:42 PM

View Postranrod, on 02 September 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:


hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity?  Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her.  From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.
1- I was not brought up in a Christian environment.

2- I'm not Catholic.

3- Even if I were, Catholicism does not "worship" Mary.

4- Even if it did, this does not reflect early Christian teaching, only Christianity as it evolved throughout the centuries.

5- Not all Christians are Catholic, so even if everything above is true (and it's not, based on my research) it doesn't account for all Christians, and certainly not for the earliest believers (which the comment I referred to was addressed towards).

6- Even though Mary is revered in Catholic tradition that is not proof that Mary was ever part of the trinity (especially in the beliefs of the earliest Christians).

View PostElfin, on 02 September 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:



I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.
You still haven't provided any of this "good evidence" you claimed in your OP. Don't think that it hasn't gone unnoticed. Remember, you used the phrase "good evidence" in relation to the earliest believers (aka, first century AD). But all I've seen is misrepresented Roman Catholic tradition (sometime after 5th century AD) and the Qu'ran (somewhere around the 7th century AD).

I'm still waiting on this promised evidence.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 September 2013 - 11:49 PM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#23    Star of the Sea

Star of the Sea

    Pienso en ti siempre

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,843 posts
  • Joined:10 Jan 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England

  • 'The light of the world'

Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:54 PM

View Postranrod, on 02 September 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity?  Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her.  From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

I'm not doubting that you have had a Catholic upbringing but I think your understanding of Catholic Teaching is (with the greatest of respect) incorrect. Roman Catholics do not 'ask for forgiveness' from the Virgin Mary for their sins. That can only be obtained through an ordained Catholic Priest. When a Priest asks you to pray an 'Our Father or Hail Mary'  after  absolution it's just a form of penance to complete the Sacrament... Catholics do not worship the Blessed Mother but honour her as the Mother of God and only ask her to 'intercede' on their behalf to Jesus for them. She is 'in no way or form' seen as a deity.


http://www.thecathol...n.com/id52.html

Edited by Star of the Sea, 02 September 2013 - 06:08 PM.

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17

#24    lightly

lightly

    metaphysical therapist

  • Member
  • 5,703 posts
  • Joined:01 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan U.S.A.

  • "The future ain't what it used to be"
    Yogi Berra

Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:20 PM

I think it may go all the way back to . . .  Father Sky , and his  SUN /son  .. and  Mother  Earth.   

  ..

Edited by lightly, 02 September 2013 - 06:22 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#25    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:04 PM

View Postranrod, on 02 September 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity?  Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her.  From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

Prayer and Worship are two different things ... Catholics are only taught the Mary is the mother of Jesus, and yes she is revered as a very important person, I don't think it is a big deal considering the fact she was an important person.

There is a lot of history with the Hail Mary, the prayer looks like this - asking Mary to pray with/for you:   

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary

Edited by Codemonger, 02 September 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#26    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:29 PM

View Postambelamba, on 02 September 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...then it's pretty obvious.

This is when stereotypes can be very misguided.  You are entitled to believe that Christians/Catholics worship Mary, but it doesn't mean that it is a fact or it is true.


#27    ranrod

ranrod

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 726 posts
  • Joined:29 Aug 2009

Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 02 September 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

3- Even if I were, Catholicism does not "worship" Mary.

View PostStar of the Sea, on 02 September 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Catholics do not worship the Blessed Mother but honour her as the Mother of God and only ask her to 'intercede' on their behalf to Jesus for them. She is 'in no way or form' seen as a deity.

View PostCodemonger, on 02 September 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Prayer and Worship are two different things ...
From my perhaps limited perspective, all of these sound like exercises in mental gymnastics to avoid calling a spade a spade.  We could argue all day about the all subtle differences between french fries and wedge-cut fries, but at the end of the day we all know that underneath they're both potatoes.


#28    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:46 PM

View Postranrod, on 02 September 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

From my perhaps limited perspective, all of these sound like exercises in mental gymnastics to avoid calling a spade a spade.  We could argue all day about the all subtle differences between french fries and wedge-cut fries, but at the end of the day we all know that underneath they're both potatoes.

I agree with your statement "limited perspective", but not the rest of it. Your perception is very untrue. Catholics/Christians see Mary as a human being like you or I, why is that hard to understand ?

Edited by Codemonger, 02 September 2013 - 07:49 PM.


#29    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 02 September 2013 - 10:22 PM

You must be familiar with this classical Ave Maria, would you consider this worship?



Lyrics:

Ave Maria, gratia plena.
Maria, gratia plena
Maria, gratia plena
Ave, ave dominus,
Tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
Et benedictus
Benedictus fructus ventris tui
Ventris tui, Jesus.
Ave Maria.

Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
Et benedictus
Benedictus fructus ventris tui
Ventris tui, Jesus.
Ave Maria.


#30    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,327 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:20 AM

To insiders, it's not a worship. To outsiders, it seems to be. The mindset gives you a immense change in your perspective. The veneration of Mary is almost Orwellian.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users