Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity


  • Please log in to reply
134 replies to this topic

#46    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 03 September 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

You have to understand the meaning of the Greek word 'Aldophes or plural adelphoi' and how it cross references with scripture.

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus


#47    Star of the Sea

Star of the Sea

    Pienso en ti siempre

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts
  • Joined:10 Jan 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England

  • 'The light of the world'

Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:41 AM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus


Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi'  using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17

#48    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 03 September 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi'  using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.


#49    eight bits

eight bits

    ...

  • Member
  • 6,177 posts
  • Joined:24 May 2007

Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:37 AM

Not that the question is a major preoccupation of mine, but if we scroll down from Mark 6:3 to verse 17, we see that Philip, the first hsuband of Herodias and usually called Herod II, is described as the "brother" of Herod Antipas. They were actually half-brothers. Their father was Herod the Great, Antipas' mother was Malthace and Philip's mother was the second Mariamne.

I wonder how come Protestants and Catholics have never debated this before :).

Posted Image

#50    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostCodemonger, on 03 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

And here I was about to believe your story of being a born again non sexist, non misogynist non SOB.

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=253969


I think this explains your poor attitude towards this subject, your words not mine:

"I used to be a very sexist, misogynist SOB. Although I never committed such horrible crime in my life, my wretched inner past haunted me and tortured me. And I gotta confess, the culture in my homeland is a vastly misogynist and rapist-friendly"


I guess you are my enemy. :devil:

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#51    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

One thing that makes me wonder is that the name 'Mary' is missing in the Gospel of Mark. And even in the Gospel of John. One soul-crushing possibility is that her name could have been nowhere near Mary or Miriam.

But...in my newly found belief, anything is possible, except that it won't be of supernatural origin. What we perceive as being supernatural might be no more than a system glitch or someone using  a cheat code. Who knows? Maybe Jesus really rose from the dead and the corpses actually were re-animated during the event, except that the 'administrator' simply deleted the evidences to confuse the hell out of the sims...I mean us.

To make this horrible speculation even more bone-chilling, we can assume that everything in the Bible actually happened, except that the reason for the lack of evidence can be rather disturbing. Probably this world has been 'rewritten' or 'patched' for whatever reason, and there's no reason to find any form of spiritual comfort from the Scripture even if the whole book contained what actually happened. Why? Because all those event were nothing but the results of some joke.

When someone reaches to this conclusion, probably he/she will start spewing out expletives in every couple of words. That's what I am doing now in real life. Because the whole world is just a sick joke.

MORE EDIT: Then I started to think. I started to gravitate toward Buddhism even more. If you read Pali Canon, you will see that you are dealing with a entirely different worldview from Abrahamic one. Actually if you study Eastern ideas you will see a vastly alien perspective on many things from Semitic one. I kid you not. In the East there's was virtually no boundary between philosophy and religion. And people didn't care. Those thinkers could put that clown on shame.

Just a non-sequitur, when Confucius traveled around with his students, kings and rulers hated him because Confucius urged them to be merciful and compassionate to their subjects. He actually went to the royal courts and actually taught the kings and rulers, unlike that clown. And I gotta tell you, Confucius realized that obsessing with afterlife is plain idiotic and taught everyone to stay away from such belief.

Edited by ambelamba, 03 September 2013 - 12:13 PM.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#52    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:21 PM

And now I found an interesting quote from a renowned Canadian environmental activist, Paul Watson.

To him, we are just a bunch of primates out of control.

And I know that there was at least this one guy who tried to keep those 'primates' in a good order through good things. And I can damn sure he wasn't born in 1st century Palestine.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#53    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:25 PM

View Posteight bits, on 03 September 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Not that the question is a major preoccupation of mine, but if we scroll down from Mark 6:3 to verse 17, we see that Philip, the first hsuband of Herodias and usually called Herod II, is described as the "brother" of Herod Antipas. They were actually half-brothers. Their father was Herod the Great, Antipas' mother was Malthace and Philip's mother was the second Mariamne.

I wonder how come Protestants and Catholics have never debated this before :).

Since Jesus's father probably wasn't Joseph (it was either god, or a Roman soldier named Panthera, according to early reports, take your pick), whereas the father of the others probably was Joseph, that fits perfectly. The alternative, that Mary wasn't their mother, would make them not related by blood to Jesus at all.


#54    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Since Jesus's father probably wasn't Joseph (it was either god, or a Roman soldier named Panthera, according to early reports, take your pick), whereas the father of the others probably was Joseph, that fits perfectly. The alternative, that Mary wasn't their mother, would make them not related by blood to Jesus at all.

Scholars tend to say Joseph was the father of Jesus. And I see this as a result of internal politics. If eminent scholars claimed anything close to Panthera hypothesis in public, any Christian with automatic weapons would have a field day.  I can see that even Bart Ehrman keeps pulling the punch, obviously because he wants to keep his job. I bet part of him has a very unkind opinion on Jesus, but he doesn't explicitly express it because Bart's gotta eat too.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#55    ambelamba

ambelamba

    Just an average guy who tries to be...NORMAL!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,332 posts
  • Joined:26 Mar 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Entertainment Capital of the World

  • It's good to be mildly skeptical to remain sane. But too much of it will make you a douche.

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus

One thing that bugs me about a certain UM member on this topic is this:Lay Catholic people have no knowledge of a lot of things this member believes. How do I know? I was raised Catholic! And most Catholics go on living happy lives without digging deep into Catholic doctrines! And I can confidently say lay people with such intense level of theological knowledge and devotion are...not normal people.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#56    Codemonger

Codemonger

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 140 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

  • "I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people" - Isaac Newton

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.


That may be the literal meaning to some extent, but even the secular greek meaning is used in different ways depending on the context.

View Postambelamba, on 03 September 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

I guess you are my enemy. :devil:

No, we are not. I just think your statement was very degenerate, and that was my explanation of why.

View Postambelamba, on 03 September 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Scholars tend to say Joseph was the father of Jesus. And I see this as a result of internal politics. If eminent scholars claimed anything close to Panthera hypothesis in public, any Christian with automatic weapons would have a field day.  I can see that even Bart Ehrman keeps pulling the punch, obviously because he wants to keep his job. I bet part of him has a very unkind opinion on Jesus, but he doesn't explicitly express it because Bart's gotta eat too.

That is a bold lie.

View Postambelamba, on 03 September 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

One thing that bugs me about a certain UM member on this topic is this:Lay Catholic people have no knowledge of a lot of things this member believes. How do I know? I was raised Catholic! And most Catholics go on living happy lives without digging deep into Catholic doctrines! And I can confidently say lay people with such intense level of theological knowledge and devotion are...not normal people.

I don't believe you were raised a Catholic, you make very wild statements that just don't add up.


#57    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:26 PM

View PostCodemonger, on 03 September 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:


That may be the literal meaning to some extent, but even the secular greek meaning is used in different ways depending on the context.



No, we are not. I just think your statement was very degenerate, and that was my explanation of why.



That is a bold lie.



I don't believe you were raised a Catholic, you make very wild statements that just don't add up.

What is it about the context of those verses that makes you think that anything other than a literal meaning is intended?


#58    Star of the Sea

Star of the Sea

    Pienso en ti siempre

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts
  • Joined:10 Jan 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England

  • 'The light of the world'

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.

The Greek word for brother (adelphos; plural adelphoi) does mean sibling also there are precise Greek words for cousin, nephew, and other close relations. Adelphos is the word used whenever there's a mention of Jesus' "brothers" (Mt 12:46; 13:55-56; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:5; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5).

However, Adelphos does not only mean sibling in the New Testament. In Matthew 13:55-56 four men are named as brothers (adelphoi) of the Lord: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude.  It is wrong to conclude that these are at least some of Mary's children. The New Testament proves otherwise.

In John 19:25 we read, "Standing by the foot of the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary of Magdala." Cross reference this with Matthew 27:56: "Among them [at the cross] were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." We see that at least two of the men mentioned in Matthew 13 were definitely not siblings of Jesus (although they're called adelphoi); they were Jesus' cousins; sons of their mother's sister.

The Bible is simply silent on the exact relationship between Jesus and the other two men, Simon and Jude, mentioned in Matthew 13. This proves two important things. First, it proves that the Greek word for brother is sometimes used to mean something other than sibling, and it proves that Matthew 13:55-56 in no way demonstrates that Mary had other children.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 03 September 2013 - 01:33 PM.

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17

#59    Elfin

Elfin

    Remote Viewer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 03 September 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

The Greek word for brother (adelphos; plural adelphoi) does mean sibling also there are precise Greek words for cousin, nephew, and other close relations. Adelphos is the word used whenever there's a mention of Jesus' "brothers" (Mt 12:46; 13:55-56; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:5; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5).

However, Adelphos does not only mean sibling in the New Testament. In Matthew 13:55-56 four men are named as brothers (adelphoi) of the Lord: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude.  It is wrong to conclude that these are at least some of Mary's children. The New Testament proves otherwise.

In John 19:25 we read, "Standing by the foot of the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary of Magdala." Cross reference this with Matthew 27:56: "Among them [at the cross] were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." We see that at least two of the men mentioned in Matthew 13 were definitely not siblings of Jesus (although they're called adelphoi); they were Jesus' cousins--sons of their mother's sister.

The Bible is simply silent on the exact relationship between Jesus and the other two men, Simon and Jude, mentioned in Matthew 13. This proves two important things. First, it proves that the Greek word for brother is sometimes used to mean something other than sibling, and it proves that Matthew 13:55-56 in no way demonstrates that Mary had other children.

Well, lets have a closer look shall we.  In John there are 4 women mentioned at the cross: Mary (Jesus's mother), her unnamed sister, another Mary (wife of Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. In Matthew we have only 3 mentioned: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James and Joseph) and an unnamed mother of the sons of Zebedee. This latter is presumably not Mary (wife of Cleophas) as otherwise she would be wife of Zebedee instead. So she is either Mary's sister, or another woman entirely, and the Mary mentioned is probably Jesus's mother.


#60    Star of the Sea

Star of the Sea

    Pienso en ti siempre

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,856 posts
  • Joined:10 Jan 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England

  • 'The light of the world'

Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:44 PM

View Postambelamba, on 03 September 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

One thing that bugs me about a certain UM member on this topic is this:Lay Catholic people have no knowledge of a lot of things this member believes. How do I know? I was raised Catholic! And most Catholics go on living happy lives without digging deep into Catholic doctrines! And I can confidently say lay people with such intense level of theological knowledge and devotion are...not normal people.

If a Roman Catholic believes the 'Virgin Mary forgives sins' and is treated as a 'deity' (which is astonishing coming from a Catholic) then something is drastically wrong with their understanding, no?... and if you were raised Catholic you should KNOW that.

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users