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God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity


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#61    Star of the Sea

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:47 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Well, lets have a closer look shall we.  In John there are 4 women mentioned at the cross: Mary (Jesus's mother), her unnamed sister, another Mary (wife of Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. In Matthew we have only 3 mentioned: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James and Joseph) and an unnamed mother of the sons of Zebedee. This latter is presumably not Mary (wife of Cleophas) as otherwise she would be wife of Zebedee instead. So she is either Mary's sister, or another woman entirely, and the Mary mentioned is probably Jesus's mother.

Not worth it Elfin. You can twist it as much as you like.

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#62    J. K.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:49 PM

From a non-Catholic point of view..."queen of heaven" seems to imply some sort of veneration.  And what about "Hail, Mary" when the Bible says that the only way to reach the Father is through the Son?

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#63    eight bits

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:50 PM

Elfin

Quote

... The alternative, that Mary wasn't their mother, would make them not related by blood to Jesus at all.
Which is also a possibility well within the range of meanings for "brother" in many languages, including Greek.

Once we have determined that a term can denote either of two things, then we need not trouble ourselves further with whether it can mean only one thing.

The dead mouse on the kitchen floor proves that you had a mouse. Smart money looks at poor dead Mickey and says that you have mice.

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#64    Elfin

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 03 September 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Not worth it Elfin. You can twist it as much as you like.

Please explain how I am twisting it. It is you who are twisting the plain context of the earlier verses describing his brothers.

Incidentally, Star of the Sea, are you aware that the title Stella Maris only became applied to Mary because of a scribal error?

https://en.wikipedia...Star_of_the_Sea

View Posteight bits, on 03 September 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Elfin


Which is also a possibility well within the range of meanings for "brother" in many languages, including Greek.

Once we have determined that a term can denote either of two things, then we need not trouble ourselves further with whether it can mean only one thing.

The dead mouse on the kitchen floor proves that you had a mouse. Smart money looks at poor dead Mickey and says that you have mice.

What's the context of the verses describing his brothers?


#65    Codemonger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

What is it about the context of those verses that makes you think that anything other than a literal meaning is intended?

If we took a Shakespeare play and did the same thing, it would not make any sense.

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#66    Star of the Sea

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Please explain how I am twisting it. It is you who are twisting the plain context of the earlier verses describing his brothers.

Incidentally, Star of the Sea, are you aware that the title Stella Maris only became applied to Mary because of a scribal error?

https://en.wikipedia...Star_of_the_Sea



What's the context of the verses describing his brothers?

Let me help you with this: Who was The Blessed Virgins sister?

Why are you digging up the origin of my Avatar? (username) Stay on topic please.

Edit to add: I have no idea why this post is in bold, as it is not my intention.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 03 September 2013 - 02:18 PM.

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#67    Codemonger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostJ. K., on 03 September 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

From a non-Catholic point of view..."queen of heaven" seems to imply some sort of veneration.  And what about "Hail, Mary" when the Bible says that the only way to reach the Father is through the Son?

"seems to imply some sort of veneration" ... veneration is not the same as God or Deity in the context of this discussion.

"And what about "Hail, Mary" ... And what about it ?


#68    ambelamba

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:28 PM

I just don't understand why some of you deny the obvious. Average Catholics don't know much about their own doctrines. Isn't that a common sense?

And I can definitely tell you that most Catholics I have known have no knowledge about House Borgia.

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#69    J. K.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostCodemonger, on 03 September 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

"seems to imply some sort of veneration" ... veneration is not the same as God or Deity in the context of this discussion.

"And what about "Hail, Mary" ... And what about it ?

Venerate: to regard or treat with reverence.  The phrase "Queen of Heaven" implies that Mary holds some position of authority in Heaven, when the only ones referred to as authorities in Scripture are God the Father and Jesus.  

Hail Mary: in John 14:6, Jesus says that the only way to reach the Father is through the Son.  Why address Mary, a human, when we have access to the deity Himself?

If you feel that I have hijacked this thread away from the "brothers" discussion, I do apologize.

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#70    Codemonger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:35 PM

View Postambelamba, on 03 September 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I just don't understand why some of you deny the obvious. Average Catholics don't know much about their own doctrines. Isn't that a common sense?

And I can definitely tell you that most Catholics I have known have no knowledge about House Borgia.

What exactly are you rambling on about ? It is obvious you have hate-on for Catholics and it is getting very trivial.


#71    Codemonger

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:44 PM

View PostJ. K., on 03 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Venerate: to regard or treat with reverence.  The phrase "Queen of Heaven" implies that Mary holds some position of authority in Heaven, when the only ones referred to as authorities in Scripture are God the Father and Jesus.  

Hail Mary: in John 14:6, Jesus says that the only way to reach the Father is through the Son.  Why address Mary, a human, when we have access to the deity Himself?

If you feel that I have hijacked this thread away from the "brothers" discussion, I do apologize.

Lets start here ... http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Veneration .. and then move here ... http://en.wikipedia....ki/Canonization.  Queen of Heaven is used because of the fact that Mary is the mother of Jesus. I can also assure you the term Queen of Heaven is not a common term used to describe Mary, at best you are fishing for nothing.

"Why address Mary, a human, when we have access to the deity Himself?" - I am still lost with this statement ?

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.


#72    eight bits

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:34 PM

Star

Quote

Edit to add: I have no idea why this post is in bold, as it is not my intention.
If you're logged in, it should show normally. If you're a "guest," then much of the text on the site is in bold, not just the posts.

No doubt Saru would look into it if you asked him.

Elfin

Quote

What's the context of the verses describing his brothers?
That the whole neighborhood (which is not necessarily Nazareth in Mark) remembers  Jesus, and whoever is being quoted doesn't remember him as being as smart back in the day as he is now. It's actually a very witty scene. There's a lot of humor in Mark.


ambelamba

Quote

And I can definitely tell you that most Catholics I have known have no knowledge about House Borgia.
You seem to have stumbled upon a gap in European History knowledge, rather than anything specifically Catholic. (I imagine the finer points of European History might not be hot sellers except in Europe, although the Borgias were very entertaining.)

BTW, I am not following your point about what the diffusion of knowledge among 1 billion Catholics has to do with what the Church's teaching is. Regardless of who knows it deeply, it is readily available to anybody who can read at several sites, including one at the Vatican (where, I would guess, a high proportion of the inhabitatnts have a fair grasp of Catholic doctrine).

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#73    Elfin

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostStar of the Sea, on 03 September 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Let me help you with this: Who was The Blessed Virgins sister?

Why are you digging up the origin of my Avatar? (username) Stay on topic please.

Edit to add: I have no idea why this post is in bold, as it is not my intention.

Mary's sister, according to tradition at least, is Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist. Whether the unnamed woman in either verse is her, I have no idea.

Your username, Star of the Sea, is Stella Maris (I have no idea what your avatar is).


#74    J. K.

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostCodemonger, on 03 September 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Lets start here ... http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Veneration .. and then move here ... http://en.wikipedia....ki/Canonization.  Queen of Heaven is used because of the fact that Mary is the mother of Jesus. I can also assure you the term Queen of Heaven is not a common term used to describe Mary, at best you are fishing for nothing.

I am fishing for nothing; rather, I seek understanding.  Regardless of the frequency of its usage, the phrase does exist and I question its origin.

Quote

"Why address Mary, a human, when we have access to the deity Himself?" - I am still lost with this statement ?

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Please reference post # 19.  I question the concept of praying to a human being; I see nothing of that in the Bible.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#75    Star of the Sea

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostElfin, on 03 September 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Mary's sister, according to tradition at least, is Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist. Whether the unnamed woman in either verse is her, I have no idea.

Your username, Star of the Sea, is Stella Maris (I have no idea what your avatar is).

Not according to tradition. Elizabeth was the Virgin Mary's cousin.

I think you are muddled up with the Mary's at the foot of the cross ;)

"Well, lets have a closer look shall we.  In John there are 4 women mentioned at the cross: Mary (Jesus's mother), her unnamed sister, another Mary (wife of Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. In Matthew we have only 3 mentioned: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James and Joseph) and an unnamed mother of the sons of Zebedee. This latter is presumably not Mary (wife of Cleophas) as otherwise she would be wife of Zebedee instead. So she is either Mary's sister, or another woman entirely, and the Mary mentioned is probably Jesus's mother".

There were according to John 3 Mary's at the foot of the cross:

1. Mary the Mother of Jesus

2. Mary of Cleophas (Mother of James and Joseph) and sister/in law to the Mother of Jesus ( Virgin Mary)

3. Mary Magdelene.

There wasn't an 'unnamed sister'.


Yes I know that Stella Maris is Star of the Sea. I chose it as a tribute to the Virgin Mary.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 03 September 2013 - 04:37 PM.

"Love one another as I have loved you" John 15:9-17




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