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Focused mind results in loss of consciousness


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#1    EvrWndrY

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 04:42 PM

I have tried Astral Projection for many years and recently decided to give it another try. I have never experienced the vibrations and think I have the reason why. After relaxing and holding my mind clear I lose consciousness for 15 minutes on average.  I have experimented with holding my mind clear in the lotus position and found that even though my mind is completely conscious my body begins to fall backwards after a certain amount of time. I understand that this is proof that I am reaching the hypnagogic state successfully. What I cannot understand is why the vibrations have not manifested during my sessions. I am obviously making it into the hypnagogic state with my consciousness fully intact. I know that one cannot spend a large amount of time in that state without eventually losing consciousness. Any ideas?


#2    Ryu

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:09 PM

Hi and welcome to UM.

I am not sure, based on what I am reading, that it is wise to jump on the metaphysical bandwagon right away.

I am concerned that this "loss of consciousness" has a medical base because falling asleep is quite a different thing. Maybe a sudden and dangerous lowering of blood pressure could be it. If you insist on doing this then I would suggest lying down as this puts less stress on the heart AND if you lose consciousness, as you claim to have been doing, you won't get hurt..unless you decide to use the top bunk of a bunk bed and roll off then you might have some problems. ;)

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#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 05:24 PM

I've done as much meditating.  I have also been known to fall asleep.  One thing I have not done is project myself outwards, although I think I know how to do it, I think trying might be dangerous and would certainly be pointless and hence arrogant.


#4    EvrWndrY

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 06:01 PM

I appreciate all of the speedy responses and am very thankful for a forum where I can air my concerns whereas I have no one to speak with about them. I have studied Qabalah and Hermeticism through the Tree of Life very heavily. I have become very adept at Tarot cards and Astrology as a result. I feel as though Astral Projection is the next skill I need to master in order to progress on my path. Thank you again for your replies and thoughts.


#5    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostEvrWndrY, on 02 September 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I have tried Astral Projection for many years and recently decided to give it another try. I have never experienced the vibrations and think I have the reason why. After relaxing and holding my mind clear I lose consciousness for 15 minutes on average.  I have experimented with holding my mind clear in the lotus position and found that even though my mind is completely conscious my body begins to fall backwards after a certain amount of time. I understand that this is proof that I am reaching the hypnagogic state successfully. What I cannot understand is why the vibrations have not manifested during my sessions. I am obviously making it into the hypnagogic state with my consciousness fully intact. I know that one cannot spend a large amount of time in that state without eventually losing consciousness. Any ideas?
You are not relaxed enough. Do not sit, recline or even lye down. Also try very early in the morning.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#6    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:06 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 02 September 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I've done as much meditating.  I have also been known to fall asleep.  One thing I have not done is project myself outwards, although I think I know how to do it, I think trying might be dangerous and would certainly be pointless and hence arrogant.
It's not dangerous. It's a very natural state practiced by many throughout history. I would only warn someone with a heart condition away from it because some amazing things can happen.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#7    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:19 AM

Messing around in your brain like that when you have no good reason may or may not be dangerous in the sense that you hurt yourself, but you very well may convince yourself of any of a number or delusions.


#8    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:47 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 September 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Messing around in your brain like that when you have no good reason may or may not be dangerous in the sense that you hurt yourself, but you very well may convince yourself of any of a number or delusions.
On what basis do you consider it messing around? Extatic states are the core of most traditional spiritualities. The world is under all kinds of self convinced delusions, understanding yourself inside of altered states of consciousness gives you a better grip on understanding yourself and prevents you from participating in much of the other delusions and insanity around you. I actually think everyone should master the skill. I have not met a single person that understands this state that is not a balanced and thoughtful person.

A sizable chunk of humanity believes that god fathered himself to a virgin, then was crucified on a cross to sacrifice himself so that he can go up and be in heaven. Or that mahumad flew on a magic carpet, or that sidartha faced the hordes of Mara, and you think someone trying to see what it's all about for themselves is at risk for delusion?

Edited by White Crane Feather, 03 September 2013 - 02:52 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#9    Frank Merton

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:29 AM

We have different views of meditation; I see it as a way to enhance certain skills, particularly concentration, empathy, compassion, and mindfulness. I also appreciate its powers regarding health.  I am also aware of its power to indoctrinate -- to convert teachings or opinions into devout beliefs.

As for any spiritual aspects it may or may not have, I am agnostic; I think these phenomena are largely imagined and if occasionally real are uncommunicable and hence of little use.  They haven't happened to me, which of course is evidence of nothing.

Yes, delusions are common, and no doubt I have my share, although I try to find them and root them out.


#10    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:07 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 03 September 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

We have different views of meditation; I see it as a way to enhance certain skills, particularly concentration, empathy, compassion, and mindfulness. I also appreciate its powers regarding health.  I am also aware of its power to indoctrinate -- to convert teachings or opinions into devout beliefs.

As for any spiritual aspects it may or may not have, I am agnostic; I think these phenomena are largely imagined and if occasionally real are uncommunicable and hence of little use.  They haven't happened to me, which of course is evidence of nothing.

Yes, delusions are common, and no doubt I have my share, although I try to find them and root them out.
We don't have different views on meditation. I agree with those things, my experiences force me to have a more expanded view. It's not useless to the individual at all. My awareness of such places of the mind have enabled me to understand things about people that i never would have. Everything from autism and scitzophrenia to depression and drug addiction is really just altered state of consciousness. I'm more prepare to be compassionate and empathic then I ever was, because I have investigated avenues and recesses of my mind. I don't find it usless at all..... In fact I find it very enlightening. I can think of another historical person who spent why more time and dedication to exploring himself than I have, and it was hardly useless. it has changed millions of lives and continues to do so. ;)

Edited by White Crane Feather, 03 September 2013 - 04:10 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#11    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

I don't want to be harsh, but just as I remarked that my testimony of not having such experiences is evidence of nothing, that rule applies to everyone's personal testimonies.  What you say about meditation has been said about all sorts of practices.


#12    Skep B

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:27 AM

The astral projecting/ higher consciousness stuff I've never bought into.  I meditate myself quite a bit, but only because to me its the best way to clear my head and think on things more intensely the empathy, compassion and all that doesn't factor in for my situation.  The mystics aspects come across as an overactive imagination that one chooses to believe in because it makes one feel good.  So to that extent, yes I do believe that its all a delusion

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#13    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 09:22 AM

View PostSkepticalB, on 05 September 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

The astral projecting/ higher consciousness stuff I've never bought into.  I meditate myself quite a bit, but only because to me its the best way to clear my head and think on things more intensely the empathy, compassion and all that doesn't factor in for my situation.  The mystics aspects come across as an overactive imagination that one chooses to believe in because it makes one feel good.  So to that extent, yes I do believe that its all a delusion
I can understand why one might think that. I may have had I not experienced it myself. Heck I'm still skeptical about things like kundalini and few others though I have learned not to write these things off by shere virtue of what I have experienced also seems fantastic. That's the way I have always been that's why I was serker79 for so long because I did need to see for myself. In fact the spirit journey is apart of many ( if not every) traditional spirituality throughout human history. The reason for this is because its not an imagined experience. From a skeptical and physicalist stand point most kinds of astral projection are indeed real OBEs ( emphasis on "experience") This means that it really does seem like you have exited your body. You are not simply visualizing it. You are actually in an altered state of consciousness and you are physiologically altered. In most cases you have entered what the non spiritual inturpetation would call a WILD ( Wake Induced Lucid Dream). This means you entered the state from an alert and awake mental state as opposed to sleep. The "lucid dream" label, IMO, is not really accurate. A more technical non spiritual label would be a state very close to a sustained hypnogogia. Meditating for hours or by using various other methods one can achieve these altered states and maintain them.  Even this I'm skeptical about because  Some Paiute native Americans achieve the state through being lifted by hooks in their flesh, sweat lodges, deprivation vision quests ( a personal practice of mine on acasion) and many other means that have nothing to do with sleep or near sleep states. The underlying factor is that the persons mental state is changed like turning the channel on a television.

Unfortunately there are fakers. Basically mystic wannabes that that pretend and fake grand journies or those that actually think a journey is an imagined visualization. There certainly is nothing wrong with creative visualization, but the shamans spirit walk or astral projection is entirely a different and complicated phenomenon.

It's certainly is not delusional. When you have managed to step out of your body and look back at your body it's perfectly logical to conclude that you may have just actually have exited your body. Sure, it might be some kind of dream or hullucination, but its not delusional. It's not delusional to come to different conclusions than cynics that think its all just a newagy game. In fact if the cynic actually bothers to any real research they will find out that their attitude is closer to delusional than the experiencer.

As a shamanic practitioner, the exstatic states are a key componant to my practice and spiritual world view. I can tell you from experience that most religions are founded on similar shamanic states. I can recognize in bible when Somone like Jhon of Patmos  or even jesus is experienceing a vision in an altered state of consciousness. I can recognize it in stories about Mohammad, Moses, etc etc.

All these figures go through very traditional steps of what's called a shamanic awakening. It usually starts with distancing oneself then strange behavior then a long solo excursion into the wilderness, encounters with spiritual beings, then a return. Jesus, Mohammad, Moses, Sidartha are just the famous ones that have followed this pattern. In truth in traditional tribal societies its about very roughly one in every 150 that receive this sort of call. It still is though its mostly ignored or medicated away these days. Especially since, for most there is no cultural support system for these people.

Anyway, I did not mean to go into all of that. But it's best to be educated about things before you start throwing out words like, delusional, illogical, etc etc.

Healthy skepticism is a good thing pseudo skepticism or cynicism is... Well.... Just ignorance.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-




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