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Free-floating planets may be born free

exoplanets rogue planets rosette nebula

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#31    spacecowboy342

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:40 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 04 September 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

It provides an interesting possibility for a mechanism for Panspermia.
Excellent point and one I had not considered though I can envision other mechanisms as well


#32    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 04 September 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

It provides an interesting possibility for a mechanism for Panspermia.

How exactly?

If these planets are forming in a nebula, but have no star then they are likely to be gas giants. With there being no star, there is no "frost line", hence there is no process to remove the more volatile gases such as hydrogen and helium.

Even if a terrestrial planet could form (and this seems highly unlikely) then the surface will be extremely cold. If there is water on this unlikely planet then there will be a very thick crust of ice. Smaller, moon sized planets, will not have the tidal processes we see with worlds such as Europa, so no warming effect, the entire planet will be frozen solid... not great for life.

If we have a planet which are Venus orf Earth sized then it possible to have a molten core. Then the ocean depths may remain liquid. There may also be black smokers and so life is not impossible... in the DEEP ocean. The surface will, however, be frozen solid. There is likely to be a very thick crust of ice at the surface (and remember at the temperatures experienced in deep space ice behaves more like rock than the rather soft material we are used to). How is life transferred, through this thick rock crust, from the bottom of the ocean into space? It would seem an unlikely meteor strike that could do that without vaporizing  the planet in the process.

The we have the fact that these planets are wandering ALONE in interstellar space. The chances of a meteor from one of these planets encountering a world suitable for life is vanishingly small.

It is a vast universe, so it's not impossible, but it seems to me that the chances of panspermia occurring as the result of such a free-floating planet would be as close to zero as makes no odds.

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#33    cacoseraph

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:29 AM

None of what Waspie said is incorrect as far as I can gather... but there is also the sort of nuclear eaters.  I can't remember their names off hand, but for all of science times up until relatively short time ago it was assumed that all life processes basically had the sun as the ultimate source of their energy.  Then these bacteria or whatever were found 1-2 miles beneath the surface of the earth that use the minerals that they live in's inherent radioactivity to power the metabolism and use all kinds of chemical routes that were barely even imagined much less documented before.

So, the whole lifebearing meteor intersecting a potential host planet being rather unlikely thing is definitely true, but at least the potential range of host planets for *some* kind of life is bigger than what once might have been thought.  Afaik, these nukies don't have currently existing liquid water on their planet as a prerequisite.


#34    DieChecker

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:59 AM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 04 September 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

How exactly?
Wouldn't it really depend on how much Radioactive elements are at the center of such a planet? If there are a lot of radioactives, then the world probably would have a molten core, which could create vulcanism and plate techtonics, which could in turn create liquid water and atmosphere. Which could lead to the development of life.

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#35    spacecowboy342

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:01 AM

It would seem to me the chemical building blocks of life could be aboard such planets even if no life per se were ther


#36    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 09:42 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 05 September 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:


Wouldn't it really depend on how much Radioactive elements are at the center of such a planet? If there are a lot of radioactives, then the world probably would have a molten core, which could create vulcanism and plate techtonics, which could in turn create liquid water and atmosphere. Which could lead to the development of life.
Remember that my argument is not that life couldn't exist on a free-floating world, it's that free-floating worlds are highly unlikely to be involved in panspermia.

Liquid water yes, indeed I said that. However, despite having a molten core the temperature at Earth's surface is almost entirely due to the sun. Towards the poles it is cold enough to have thick layers of ice.Without the sun the entire ocean would be frozen.

I suppose it is possible that there would be volcanic hot spots where liquid water and therefore life could be brought to the surface.

This is all academic anyway. As I pointed out, with no frost line free-floating planets are likely to be gasgiants.

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#37    onereaderone

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 08:33 PM

View Postcacoseraph, on 03 September 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

well, no, it totally would.  the drag problem is that any particle included into the field not already having its motion lined up perfectly with the axis of motion of the moving system would impart some element of drag.  considering how large a planet is and the relative power of its magnetic field it is going to have MORE drag than a Bussard.   The Bussard has the particles accelerated internally so that their reaction kinetic energy as they leave the system is MORE than when they enter.  I guess if you could do some magical super science to make the same claim for a planetary system, but then you have super energized particles either passing through your planet or some highly improbably efficient system to both use the planets magnetic field but not have it direct the stream of particles through the planet.


i  have  it .   your  totaly  right ...  but ...

the  factor  i  don't  say  but  in  my  head  i see  is  that  the  particles  are  not  rungs  of  a laddle  you  climb .  which  is  your  model  that  makes  complete  sense .

i  see  not  a ladder...   but  an  earth worm crawling thru the  dirt.   the  ion particles  are  pulled  to the  planet body .
with  no  ions departing on  one side  of  the  planetoid  and  a  magnetic  field  the  size  of  a  few  solar systems  on  the  other ...    you  pull  your  planet  along  at  the  mass  of  the  ions you effect .  

also , with  a powerful enough magnetic field ,   you  might  even  polarize  dust  and  bits  that  are  not magnetic  in  the begining, and  haul  them  into  your  plant body .

i  do agree  with  your  logic  ,  that  if  your  pulling  assemetricaly  with  a magnetic feild ...  the  pulled  matter  will  have  a negitive  thrust  effect   as  it  moves  away  .
the  trick is  to  not  let  it  move away .

as  your  planetoid  moves thru space...  at  what ever speed ....   the  material  that  arrives  with  in its  grasp  will  be on  only  one side (  because  the  other side  has  been cleared in passing ) ...  so  that  pulling  on it...  will  pull   togather...
a  100 unit planet moving .oo1distance : 1 unit of ion's  and  other  material.... moving 10000 distance .
if  the  material  lands  on  the  planetoid , you will  add  to  the  gravity  well  of  the  planetoid ,  and  not  effect  the  motion beyond  'no  further  adding  to its acceleration '


#38    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 09:38 PM

onereaderone

May I suggest that you start a new thread to discuss your ideas rather than take an existing one totally off topic.

Thank you.

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#39    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

I have always doubted panspermia ideas.  They seem designed with the assumption that originating life is difficult and unlikely, and I think otherwise.  I think a local origin of life is much the simpler and more likely true (I might admit of a Martian exception, but even that less likely than local).

It is true that the foundations of life are common in the universe, but I don't think that proves much except that maybe amino acids came in with comets, but they would have been here on their own anyway.


#40    spacecowboy342

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:23 PM

I don't know if the pan-spermia idea is valid or not but I could see it also as supporting the notion that life arises any time it is given a chance if it starts developing in the accretion disk before planets even form. To me, this could explain amino acids in comets


#41    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:31 PM

I think amino acids are just a common molecule that can be found anywhere conditions permit.  It is a long stretch from them to life, and I perceive a million years of so of ocean-sized soups as being where that happens.


#42    spacecowboy342

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 08 September 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I think amino acids are just a common molecule that can be found anywhere conditions permit.  It is a long stretch from them to life, and I perceive a million years of so of ocean-sized soups as being where that happens.
I would tend to agree and I don't mean to suggest that there is actually life floating around looking for a planet. I think though in some cases pan-spermia could be true as in the idea that life on earth may have started on Mars and been transported to earth piggybacking on meteors. I doubt there is any one answer but probably multiple, though that is just my feeling


#43    DieChecker

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 01:47 AM

I'd like to make one last comment about moving a planet with magnetics. Even if the movement of the particles and matte could be done, how would that possibly affect a planet when the scales are so much different? Wouldn't we be taking a scale of hundreds of thousands of years? The inertia of the planet due to it's mass and orbital speed would render the thrust from passing matter insignificant.

Wouldn't the pressing of the Sun's solar wind have thrown us out of the solar system by now if this was actually a do-able idea?

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