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raising minimum wage does not reduce poverty


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#46    Leonardo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:07 PM

View Postdanielost, on 05 September 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Rasing minimum wage does increase poverty levels and number of people below the poverty line.


Why is this, you ask.  Because prices have to go up to cover the new wage.

And this is where the right-wing rhetoric falls down - because, no, they don't.

Prices have to go up if companies want to maintain the same profit margins, but it is a fallacy they have to go up to cover the new wage.

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#47    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:21 PM

^ so the company should just willingly accept a smaller profit for the good of someone else? Erm why? That goes against everything we see in the biological world. :s ps - this is the real world here, not some fantasy communist slave world. Bottom line is, if min wages go up so will prices to cover the losses. ;) it's quiet simple.


#48    Purifier

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:34 PM

View Postdanielost, on 06 September 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:

In either case it doesn't work.  More people are on food stamp no than ever before.

Because more people are having to supplement part of there income with food stamps, thus "the why" we need to raise the minimum wage.

View Postdanielost, on 06 September 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

And hat is the government doing to help make jobs. They are increasing income, corpor ate, sales tax on medicl devises.  Let's not fofget the thousands of new regultions which also cost time nd money.


Well somebody is creating jobs, Daniel. The national unemployment rate keeps falling, slowly but surely. It's now at what?  7.3 percent? When it happens to get below 7.0 (let's say 6.5), and nearly 45 million people are still on food stamps because minimum wage hasn't gone up yet, then what will you say? Still not enough jobs? Okay then, what if the unemployment rate gets below 6.0 percent? Yet still, nearly 45 million people are on food stamps with no increase in minimum wage. What will you say then? My guess, with the logic you presented so far, you'd probably still say - "not enough jobs" - right?

If the current minimum wage worker doesn't get a minimum wage increase, they can not keep up with the rising costs of living. If the cost of living goes up, which it has, after the recession, so should the minimum wage.

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#49    Agent0range

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:36 PM

It doesn't always mean smaller profit.  With more money available to be spent, there is a good possibility that the company's products will be available to a larger number of people.


#50    Purifier

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 06 September 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

^ so the company should just willingly accept a smaller profit for the good of someone else? Erm why? That goes against everything we see in the biological world. :s ps - this is the real world here, not some fantasy communist slave world. Bottom line is, if min wages go up so will prices to cover the losses. ;) it's quiet simple.


The prices have already gone up! It's been that way for the past few years. Currently, somebody is making hugh profits. Sure in the hell ain't the minimum wage worker!

Edited by Purifier, 06 September 2013 - 03:41 PM.

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#51    supervike

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:54 PM

Why shouldn't these people demand better pay?

If a corporation can look for any way to maximized profits and that is deemed 'good', why shouldn't an individual be able to look and explore their options as well?

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship.  Working class people don't want the companies to go out of business, that would be completely insane.  They are just asking for a more fair representation of their value.  The ONLY way to do that is via money.


#52    spartan max2

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:59 PM

Just to jump in about unions. I dont think that are inherently bad. In fact I think workers VOLUNTARILY banning together to negotiate is capitalism at its best. Its all volunteery.

I think the problem is today is that we FORCE people to be in unions. Forcing people in unions makes the union a monopoly making it corrupt because it no longer has to care about its members

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#53    Leonardo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 06 September 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

^ so the company should just willingly accept a smaller profit for the good of someone else? Erm why? That goes against everything we see in the biological world. :s ps - this is the real world here, not some fantasy communist slave world. Bottom line is, if min wages go up so will prices to cover the losses. ;) it's quiet simple.

This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.

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#54    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:24 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 06 September 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

People making 7 bucks an hour can't afford property
Why should they be guaranteed property?


#55    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:31 PM

The labor market is the main driver behind increasing prices, and so long as there is slack in the labor market (unemployment and underemployment), there is a drag on prices.  It's a hard choice -- between full employment and inflation.

Other things going up in price, such as commodities, tend to get offset by substitution and reduced consumption, but when wages go up the constraints on spending that unemployment generates hold back overall prices.

Most governments try to aim for near-full employment and in the process accept a little inflation.  It is a difficult balance because acts by the government have a lag, so that the right balance is hard to determine.


#56    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:33 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 06 September 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.
What you say is true, but tends to lead to political efforts (such as mandatory wages and prices) that are on the same order as Canute ordering the tide not to come in.  You cannot legislate natural processes.


#57    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 06 September 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Just to jump in about unions. I dont think that are inherently bad. In fact I think workers VOLUNTARILY banning together to negotiate is capitalism at its best. Its all volunteery.

I think the problem is today is that we FORCE people to be in unions. Forcing people in unions makes the union a monopoly making it corrupt because it no longer has to care about its members
Unions can't function voluntarily longer than a short period because otherwise non-union competition drives unionized firms out of business.


#58    Thanato

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:52 PM

I make 10.25 minimum wage (ontario) and if I budget I can survive payin rent and buying food, I can not survive and support my son at the same time which is why I have help.

Remember many of these places make good profits and can actual absorbe the costs of a higher minimum wage.

Sure something's do go up in price but rent wouldnt increase, hydro wouldn't increase, gas wouldn't increase.

Some items might but most won't.

Not everything is directly tied with the minimum wage. But also raising the minimum could I fact encourage economic development. More money in people's pockets means more spending and buying items they might not of bought.

So the more money you pay people the more money gets spent and the more economic growth happens.

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#59    questionmark

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 04:56 PM

View Postdanielost, on 06 September 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

And hat is the government doing to help make jobs. They are increasing income, corpor ate, sales tax on medicl devises.  Let's not fofget the thousands of new regultions which also cost time nd money.

The government does not "make jobs", the economy does. But as long as you can make more money playing with money on Wall Street don't hold your breath until anybody does.

The rich like to work as much as the poor do.

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#60    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 06 September 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:



This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.

Just because you don't like how something works doesn't make it bad. ;) just saying.





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