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The disappearance of Ray Gricar

ray gricar

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#1426    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostMrsPC, on 26 November 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

on the recently found York remains

http://www.pennlive....man_remain.html

and this one states he could be 60 yrs of age - with a partial denture

http://www.abc27.com...-for-3-10-years

did RG have a partial plate?

NAMUS on RG just says Dental information/charting is available


    


He adds that the only defining characteristic to the skeleton is that the man was wearing some kind of dental appliance, possibly a partial denture.

This is pretty vaguely described--probably deliberately so. But seems to me it could mean anything from a partial plate to a removable bridge to a temporary veneer. Not saying this is Gricar or that we know anything about his dental records, but I'm guessing neither York LE or BPD are going to feed us any helpful details.

The height thing would place him within range--those figures are best educated guesses based on bone lengths.

The time range would fit.

Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?


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#1427    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:48 PM

View Postlw-intuit, on 26 November 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:



Likely an adult: Preliminary examination of the bones suggests they belonged to an adult, Stabley said.

Also found was one piece of unisex-type clothing, he said.

http://www.yorkdispa...ster-site-where

I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Edited by 2-B, 26 November 2013 - 06:51 PM.

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#1428    Bay Harbor Butcher

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:05 PM

great discussion today!

so what way does the financial information point? towards him having hid money or towards foul play since nothing was out of the ordinary?


#1429    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostBay Harbor Butcher, on 26 November 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

great discussion today!

so what way does the financial information point? towards him having hid money or towards foul play since nothing was out of the ordinary?

In my opinion JJ is using the financials yet again to try and catapult a need for a forensic audit of Gricar's finances (now Lara's).  I have argued that LE cannot order or conduct a "forensic" audit of Ray's or Lara's finances unless there is suspected fraud or otherwise missing County money or accused payoffs.  Of course we know that the County did look into that aspect at one time but found nothing out of the ordinary or missing money since Ray didn't handle any money.  It is an invasion of privacy for LE to do an audit of someone's finances where nothing has been reported out of the ordinary.  "Thinking" RG should have had more cash or assets is not probable cause to turn someone's life upside down, in this case Lara, just to satisfy the curious.

Now that being said I DO BELIEVE law enforcement SHOULD conduct a forensic audit of Jonathan Luna's finances.  Of course he didn't walk away however he has been accused and his good name drug through the mud that perhaps he stole some 30k held in lock up.  Do I think he did that?  Nope but it would put to rest that nonsense of a story/angle which is WHY I surmise a forensic audit will NEVER be done.  You with me on that 2-B?


#1430    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Post2-B, on 26 November 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Of course through Keisling we know TC had some dealings in York as well.  I can't connect TC and Luna however


#1431    Saunterer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostSuperSmith, on 26 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Saunterer, I do believe that only one page was received because A. LG filed a petition to keep the rest private & B. most likely she did that to keep her personal information from the public record such as her home address and the dollar figure of her inheritance.  Not is not unusual to me.
SS: I understand why the county filing would not be complete...although actually, there appears to be more information filed there than was necessary under the court's order in July 2011.  

BHB: Since only two posters over yonder have the information, it cannot be known yet if it is of any significance...beyond LE's previous assertions that there is no missing money in regard to RG's finances.

For all: Form REV-1500 can be found here:
http://www.portal.st...tance_tax/14695

If page/side one of the form filed with Centre County is a duplicate of the form filed with the state, applicable ovals (and number of lock boxes) should be filled in, from amongst the following:
1. Original Return
2. Supplemental Return
3. Remainder Return (Date of Death Prior to 12-13-82)
4. Limited Estate
4a. Future Interest Compromise (date of death after 12-12-82)
5. Federal Estate Tax Return Required
6. Decedent Died Testate (Attach Copy of Will)
7. Decedent Maintained a Living Trust (Attach Copy of Trust.)
8. Total Number of Safe Deposit Boxes
9. Litigation Proceeds Received
10. Spousal Poverty Credit (Date of Death Between 12-31-91 and 1-1-95)
11. Election to Tax under Sec. 9113(A)(Attach Schedule O)

Edited by Saunterer, 26 November 2013 - 07:55 PM.

"I have faced murderers, rapists and pedophiles in court and a few pansy DAs in suits don't bother me." ~ Montour County DA and friend of Ray Gricar, Bob Buehner, responding to PDAA criticism leveled at him at the behest of the impotent Attorney General, Tom Corbett.

#1432    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

View Post2-B, on 26 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

He adds that the only defining characteristic to the skeleton is that the man was wearing some kind of dental appliance, possibly a partial denture.

This is pretty vaguely described--probably deliberately so. But seems to me it could mean anything from a partial plate to a removable bridge to a temporary veneer. Not saying this is Gricar or that we know anything about his dental records, but I'm guessing neither York LE or BPD are going to feed us any helpful details.

The height thing would place him within range--those figures are best educated guesses based on bone lengths.

The time range would fit.

Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?

I have no idea how these anthros come up with their figure.  Probably some formula but it is vague to say the least.

Having dentures however in my opinion kicks you up to the above 30 year old range in the vast majority.  How he got the cutoff at 50 years old I have no idea.

Skeleton said to have been there 3-10 years......pretty vague again.

5'5"-6'0" in height is also pretty vague.

I will note that a route from Lewisburg would use RT15 to get to York.


#1433    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:00 PM

"Bloss said police had already crossed checked York County records missing persons reports and had not found a match to the remains. The check covered a five-year span. Bloss said officials are not ruling out the possibility that the person came from outside York County.
Bloss said he could not report on injuries, trauma or gun shot wounds, “not that there isn’t any to report,” but because the investigation is ongoing.

Not so smart doing a check in York County for missing persons to match up with the remains by only going back 5 years when you claim that the remains had been in that location 3-10 years.

The sentence I bolded tells me there are injuries to the skeleton.

As always JMO

http://www.pennlive....man_remain.html


#1434    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:03 PM

This one says 30-40 grrrrrr I can't stand inaccurate reporting.

http://www.abc27.com...oul-play-victim


#1435    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:25 PM

Saunterer, page 3 of the Rev-1500 asks a series of questions that I would presume Lara may have answered "Yes" to several.  That would require her to file a "Schedule G".  Was there any mention of that over yonder.  I don't remember.

Are you familiar with "Reversionary interests"?

http://www.law.corne...ode/text/26/673


#1436    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

View Post2-B, on 26 November 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:





Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?

If you're snowed in, iced in, a science geek, or otherwise bored, you might want to skim through this on age at death estimation from bones.

http://www.academia....eath_estimation

Some specifics on what forensic anthropologists are doing to make that estimation, but I think the bottom line for our purposes is in the opening paragraphs. As one would logically assume, biological and chronological age can be at odds (I am sure, for instance, that both genetics and what I have put them through make my bones biologically in the neighborhood of 145). So, estimating chronological age at time of death is, in layman's terms, somewhat of a crapshoot (in scientific terms, expressed as a range with an error rate).

If these remains were thought to be 30-50 years at time of death, I don't know for sure that 9 years give or take is statistically significant in that time of life. It would be different IMO if we were talking about a time of life when growth plates would or wouldn't have closed, for instance. But this is just all spitballing.

Edited by 2-B, 26 November 2013 - 08:33 PM.

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#1437    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:00 PM

View PostSuperSmith, on 26 November 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:



In my opinion JJ is using the financials yet again to try and catapult a need for a forensic audit of Gricar's finances (now Lara's).  I have argued that LE cannot order or conduct a "forensic" audit of Ray's or Lara's finances unless there is suspected fraud or otherwise missing County money or accused payoffs.  Of course we know that the County did look into that aspect at one time but found nothing out of the ordinary or missing money since Ray didn't handle any money.  It is an invasion of privacy for LE to do an audit of someone's finances where nothing has been reported out of the ordinary.  "Thinking" RG should have had more cash or assets is not probable cause to turn someone's life upside down, in this case Lara, just to satisfy the curious.

Now that being said I DO BELIEVE law enforcement SHOULD conduct a forensic audit of Jonathan Luna's finances.  Of course he didn't walk away however he has been accused and his good name drug through the mud that perhaps he stole some 30k held in lock up.  Do I think he did that?  Nope but it would put to rest that nonsense of a story/angle which is WHY I surmise a forensic audit will NEVER be done.  You with me on that 2-B?

Absolutely with you, SS, on all points.

I just want to add a little thing that annoys the heck out of me every time JJ quotes the Lohr article allegedly quoting Tony. JJ ALWAYS  manages to get into print one more time for mass consumption Tony supposedly saying that from a forensic accounting standpoint, there's not enough money in RG's accounts.

Couple things. I remember the ensuing dust up that broke out between JJ and TG following comments JJ made about that line when TG attempted to publicly put into context what occurred during the "making" of the Lohr patch-piece on Ray's disappearance. The result was JJ eventually trying to claim that it was a FAKE Tony responding to him on his blog, which was pretty danged laughable all things considered.

Equally important, whenever JJ raises this alleged quote now re forensic accounting, he does to it what he always does to Sloane's Missed Leads observations (and other Sloane quotes) about Gricar walkaway: he conveniently truncates the quote.

From whatever TG said to Lohr re forensic accounting (and "there is the thought" does NOT mean to me that Tony necessarily thinks this) JJ has dropped a whole line from TG about Ray being from a generation that preferred to pay for things with cash and given that, what was the appropriate amount of money to be sitting in his accounts, or something to that effect. Heck, we know he paid cash for the Mini (something even JJ was eager to argue in 2006) and we know from Mrs. PC's research that he paid off about $66,000 on PF's mortgage (IIRC), likely his contribution to living there. That's pushing $100,000 outlay just for those items in the years prior to going missing.

As for Luna, I would like to see that man's reputation reclaimed every bit as much as a few others who have been unfairly destroyed. His wife deserves to hold her head up high.

"I'm team whatever freaking happened."

~Michaela on ABC's fabulous "How To Get Away With Murder"

#1438    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:05 PM

View PostSuperSmith, on 26 November 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

This one says 30-40 grrrrrr I can't stand inaccurate reporting.

http://www.abc27.com...oul-play-victim

Or--the media are getting conflicting stories from authorities. Or both. Happened all the time w/ Gricar. Now I've been catching up w/ McStay and Jamison. In Jamison 4 years later reports still conflict when family was last seen, last heard from!

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~Michaela on ABC's fabulous "How To Get Away With Murder"

#1439    2-B

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostSuperSmith, on 26 November 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Saunterer, page 3 of the Rev-1500 asks a series of questions that I would presume Lara may have answered "Yes" to several.  That would require her to file a "Schedule G".  Was there any mention of that over yonder.  I don't remember.

Are you familiar with "Reversionary interests"?

http://www.law.corne...ode/text/26/673

I'm glad you and Saunterer are willing to cover the financial forms. {{{Shudder.}}}  Those things give me headaches. I'll do the scientific reports for you. :-)

"I'm team whatever freaking happened."

~Michaela on ABC's fabulous "How To Get Away With Murder"

#1440    SuperSmith

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:09 PM

View Post2-B, on 26 November 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Guess who only lived 10 minutes away from the the remains recently found in York?

http://www.yorkdispa...com/ci_15134327

https://maps.google....ved=0CCkQ8gEwAA

http://www.democrati...dress=175x19420

http://newslanc.com/...phile-sex-ring/  Interesting two comments

http://www.yardbird....per_suicide.htm

Edited by SuperSmith, 26 November 2013 - 09:22 PM.