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how much should we cut defense.


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#31    questionmark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 12 September 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think one of the big reasons Rome fell because of corruption. These people have civil wars all the dam time. A general would win a barrel gets some glory then want to taken over.

Its hard to defend your borders when you have to worry about a civil war. Thats why they split time in two and doubled the army.

At least thats how I see it

Rome was still there when most thought it fell, only it was called Byzantium.

West Rome fell because they could not find adequate rulers anymore, the Republic ended in civil war (mostly fueled by personal egotism --- wait where are we seeing that today...hmmm?) and the Empire because the hereditary system only works until inbreeding gets the better of it.

East Rome because they could not defend themselves against Ottoman cannons with ballistas.

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#32    Almagest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:32 PM

View Postdanielost, on 12 September 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Almagest, I disagree with you partily.  The banks would have never those subprime loins if the government hadn't backed them.  Of course the government pushed more down their throat, because it was the right thing to do.  It made everyone feel good about themselves.  Today they say the samething about student loans, food stamps, and obama care(which is no longer backed by the unions, who helped to force feed it to us.

Wait wait wait wait, the Government forced deregulation down the banking industry's throat? That is absolutely ridiculous. The banking industry was the one who put pressure on politicians in order to deregulate the market. They have bought and sold politicians, had inside men in every Administration since Reagan's, and have gone so far as to pay off economists to support their arguments. It is in no ones interests, and especially not in the governments interest, to repeal the Glass-Steagall act, unless you're an investment banker looking to merge with a commercial bank in order to get access to more capital. The law was there for a reason, a response to the Great Depression. That we almost had another one because of these guys shows that for our countries' own stability we need to keep banking and investment separate.

As for the sub-prime mortgage crisis, I'll agree that personal responsibility did play a role, but the banks, now teamed up with all the money big investment firms had access to, drastically lowered their standards for handing out these loans. As a result home buyers suffered, the banks giving out the loans suffered, and Henry Paulson and his ilk walked away much, much richer. What has transpired in the three last recessions in the United States has been legalized robbery, nothing more.


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I have already felt the impact of 'the 700 billion cut.  I lost my foot doctor on the second. The nurseing home has an in house. But, he wil never be as pretty as she is.  Didn't obama promise we could keep our doctors.  I have other doctors don't know if I will lose anymore.

That's called Austerity, and when too much money accumulates in one region and doesn't flow through the economy, it's what you get.

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#33    Almagest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:42 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 12 September 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

East Rome because they could not defend themselves against Ottoman cannons with ballistas.

That reminds me - the Byzantine Empire fell not to barbarians, but to a more sophisticated empire. At the time the Ottomans were the most advanced empire on the planet, and were fighting with a standing army armed with guns at a time when the English were still fighting with feudal armies and bows. So again, it's not enough to say that ignorance and apathy were the cause of their fall. The Byzantine Empire had slowly withdrawn, and had been pillaged multiple times during the Crusades. By the time the Turks came there wasn't really much left. The Byzantines appealed to the Latins for help before the Turks arrived, and in another example of the petty East-West politics, were left to be conquered. Only a handful of Genoan and Venetians gave any assistance to Constantinople.

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#34    danielost

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:12 PM

Questionmark, the roman republic died due to government corruption. Julies ceaser ceazed power nto save rome from the corruption. That I when the republic fell.  The senaters had several chances to reinstate the empire.  But, no one had the will to do so.

That would be a lack of ego rather thn to much.  Yes, the usa is going down that path.  No one wants to do what is needed to s top it.  We are spending way to much on everything.

Edited by danielost, 12 September 2013 - 06:15 PM.

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#35    questionmark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:18 PM

View Postdanielost, on 12 September 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Questionmark, the roman republic died due to government corruption. Julies ceaser ceazed power nto save rome from the corruption. That I when the republic fell.  The senaters had several chances to reinstate the empire.  But, no one had the will to do so.

They did not have the means to do so, the money was made in the provinces, not in Rome, the manufacturing was in the provinces, not in Rome, the wheat came form the provinces, not from Rome therefore the power was outside Rome. That is how Trajan (born Hispanic, or Spanish, as you prefer) suddenly ended up being the Roman Emperor about 100 years after Caesar.

And if you think that sounds like something you know: Empires always fizzle out when the moneybags have but one goal: make more money.

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#36    danielost

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:23 PM

The money bags in this case is the democrats.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
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#37    Wickian

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

Until we actually end all of the wars we're in, we probably shouldn't reduce it at all.


#38    Gromdor

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 12 September 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

That reminds me - the Byzantine Empire fell not to barbarians, but to a more sophisticated empire. At the time the Ottomans were the most advanced empire on the planet, and were fighting with a standing army armed with guns at a time when the English were still fighting with feudal armies and bows. So again, it's not enough to say that ignorance and apathy were the cause of their fall. The Byzantine Empire had slowly withdrawn, and had been pillaged multiple times during the Crusades. By the time the Turks came there wasn't really much left. The Byzantines appealed to the Latins for help before the Turks arrived, and in another example of the petty East-West politics, were left to be conquered. Only a handful of Genoan and Venetians gave any assistance to Constantinople.

I find it most ironic that the Hungarian Orban offered to sell the cannons to the Byzantines first, but they could not afford him, so he turned around and sold it to the Ottomans.  Gotta love arms dealers.


#39    Yes_Man

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

But this will lead to job losses, where will the workers go? You could sell though...


#40    spartan max2

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 12 September 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

But this will lead to job losses, where will the workers go? You could sell though...

This is why it is near impossible to cut spending. It is much easier for a politician to "create jobs" by increasing spending. Causing debt which causes us to print more money which causes inflation to rise up up and up.

Edited by spartan max2, 12 September 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#41    questionmark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postdanielost, on 12 September 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

The money bags in this case is the democrats.

Oh, they have most money? Did not know that, thanks for the info.

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#42    Jeremiah65

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

Daniallost....There is no right and left when it comes to scamming the people out of their hard earned money.  The Democrats give it to poor people and the Republicans give it to their rich friends...bottom line is...both sides spend and waste too damn much money!

As far as reducing the military spending causing the loss of jobs....big freaking deal!  It's a shell game and the ball under the shell is OUR tax money.  The Gov pays way too much for the things they buy from a handful of weapon makers...period...there is no competition in that market.

Worried about losing jobs cause the government tit might dry up?  How about this...

How about all the bomb and missile makers become bridge and road builders...I mean shizz...they are already contractors to the GOV...just pop open another division.  Our infrastructure is in tatters and gets worse every year because for some fool reason...people think "jobs" building weapons on the tax payers back is better than "jobs" building and fixing bridges and roads...here is a clue...they all require taxpayer input...but one of those options actually helps the country in commerce...moving products...the other helps a handful of people...

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#43    Almagest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostGromdor, on 12 September 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

I find it most ironic that the Hungarian Orban offered to sell the cannons to the Byzantines first, but they could not afford him, so he turned around and sold it to the Ottomans.  Gotta love arms dealers.

Some things never change. Supposedly he was killed by a misfire during the siege, quite poetic I think. :)

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#44    Almagest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 12 September 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Daniallost....There is no right and left when it comes to scamming the people out of their hard earned money.  The Democrats give it to poor people and the Republicans give it to their rich friends...bottom line is...both sides spend and waste too damn much money!

As far as reducing the military spending causing the loss of jobs....big freaking deal!  It's a shell game and the ball under the shell is OUR tax money.  The Gov pays way too much for the things they buy from a handful of weapon makers...period...there is no competition in that market.

Worried about losing jobs cause the government tit might dry up?  How about this...

How about all the bomb and missile makers become bridge and road builders...I mean shizz...they are already contractors to the GOV...just pop open another division.  Our infrastructure is in tatters and gets worse every year because for some fool reason...people think "jobs" building weapons on the tax payers back is better than "jobs" building and fixing bridges and roads...here is a clue...they all require taxpayer input...but one of those options actually helps the country in commerce...moving products...the other helps a handful of people...

Exactly what Roosevelt did during the Great Depression. Really the economy is one big game, and sometimes you've just gotta get people playing by giving them more money to move around. I think most of us would prefer that it is done by public works instead of welfare. And from watching Dirty Jobs, where Mike Roe implores the viewers every other episode to take notice of how bad the infrastructure in the US is, I think it's necessary.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#45    questionmark

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:20 PM

To add to the above: there where the middle class is left chanceless the biggest economic motor, innovation and own initiative, is also killed.

And that is what has been going on for at least 25 years, no matter who was running the country we had a gigantic redistribution, from down to up, partially fueled by that, maybe well intended but ill advised, trickle down philosophy of the mid 80s.

If the government sticks its fingers into the actual movement of capital the minimum it has to ensure that this movement does not end up one sided -- no matter if down or up. Because that ends up with a dysfunctional economy in which it is more lucrative to play on exchanges than to actually create something.

And pointing fingers squealing Democrats or Republicans does not help. It makes the situation worse.

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