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Putin to America


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#16    Rafterman

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostBarnabasCollins, on 12 September 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Putin wrote a very good letter, well written and diplomatic.  I think he sees a chance to lessen American influence in the Middle East and to strengthen Russian influence.  The card he is playing is that Russia is the great respector of international law, the diplomats who can solve a problem without force of arms while the U.S. seeks to bypass international law by threatening military force which, if carried out, he labels "an act of agression."  I think he senses that President Obama has suffered politically over the Syrian issue, it being plain for all to see that neither the U.S. Congress nor the American people supported the President's desire to attack Syria.  Overall, over the last week we have seen Russia outshine the U.S. over the Syrian issue.  Putin comes off as the leader and our President comes off as someone without a coherent foreign policy as it relates to the Middle East.

President Obama needs new advisors.

Agreed.  Putin knows he punked Obama and is now relishing in rubbing his face in it.

From what I understand about Obama, he has great advisers.  He just rarely meets with them and seems to never listen to them - because, you know, he's the smartest man on the planet.

As for Russia, well, just don't try and be gay there.

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                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#17    Norbert the Incredible

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostRafterman, on 12 September 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Agreed.  Putin knows he punked Obama and is now relishing in rubbing his face in it.

From what I understand about Obama, he has great advisers.  He just rarely meets with them and seems to never listen to them - because, you know, he's the smartest man on the planet.

As for Russia, well, just don't try and be gay there.
America still holds the moral High Ground, then?



*looks at Miley Cyrus; thinks if only mr. O could do the same with her as Putin did with that Kitty* Riot crowd*

* or something like that

Edited by Colonel Rhuairidh, 12 September 2013 - 04:24 PM.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#18    Rafterman

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 12 September 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

America still holds the moral High Ground, then?



*looks at Miley Cyrus; thinks if only mr. O could do the same with her as Putin did with that Kitty* Riot crowd*

* or something like that

Personally I'd like to take morality out of it.

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#19    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:25 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 12 September 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

He makes good points, but ultimately it's posturing. Remember this is a leader who has carried out brutal repressions, fixed elections and ordered assassinations. Did he get UN approval to murder Chechens? He is walking the path of turning Russia into an Orthodox theocracy. In fact there is a sect in Russia which believes that he is the reincarnation of St. Peter.

The fact that such a man is the voice of reason at the moment should be terrifying to us in the West.
Did Chechens get UN permission to murder Russians?, and quite a substantial number when Dzhokhar Dudayev rebelled against the legal government in Moscow. And I would like to see your proof that Putin ordered assasinations. There is no more proof that he has done this than there is to show that Vince Foster was murdered. And as for some priests thinking Putin is the re-incarnation of St Peter, then you should look at the videos of Putin's reaction when one of them tried to kiss his hand. You may hear in some of the media that Putin is turning Russia into an "Orthodox theocrasy" but reality says different.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik, 12 September 2013 - 05:31 PM.


#20    Drayno

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

This letter makes Democrats want to vomit, apparently.

http://thehill.com/v...among-lawmakers

Hilarious how stubborn and far removed they are from reality.

The Republicans and Democrats should change their names to The War Party.

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#21    Norbert the Incredible

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 12 September 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

He makes good points, but ultimately it's posturing. Remember this is a leader who has carried out brutal repressions, fixed elections and ordered assassinations. Did he get UN approval to murder Chechens?
Who are seen by him exactly as Al Qeada are* by America? Who plant bombs on railway lines, etc?
* sorry, were

... and as fixing elections, I'm not sure how far the U.S. can throw stones there ...

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#22    Almagest

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 12 September 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Who are seen by him exactly as Al Qeada are* by America? Who plant bombs on railway lines, etc?
* sorry, were

... and as fixing elections, I'm not sure how far the U.S. can throw stones there ...

The question still stands, did he get UN approval before that action? It's not really a matter of the morality of it, just the hypocrisy. I googled it and Putin was PM at the time, so I suppose the point is moot because it would have been Yeltsin.

I'm an Australian, our elections are predictable, not fixed. Of course they don't need to fix them because Aussies seems quite easy to control.


View PostKaa-Tzik, on 12 September 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Did Chechens get UN permission to murder Russians?, and quite a substantial number when Dzhokhar Dudayev rebelled against the legal government in Moscow.

No they did not. You'll have to forgive me but my understanding is limited on the situation. I was merely posing the question to highlight the potential hypocrisy on Putin's part. Now that I've discovered that Yeltsin was President at the time the point is moot, so I retract it. :)


Quote

And I would like to see your proof that Putin ordered assasinations.

I'd counter with the lack of proof is proof that he has. Do you think he'd allow something like that to be traced back to him? :P Of course if it's true there could be an assassin en route to my place the second I click post, so if this account stops posting soon I offer that as further proof.


Quote

And as for some priests thinking Putin is the re-incarnation of St Peter, then you should look at the videos of Putin's reaction when one of them tried to kiss his hand. You may hear in some of the media that Putin is turning Russia into an "Orthodox theocrasy" but reality says different.

So then, what is the rationale for laws against Religious Offence? Around the world homosexuals are gradually gaining the right to be married, yet in Russia homosexuality, and it's "promotion", has been criminalized. Do you think the members of P*ssy Riot would have been jailed if they performed their stunt anywhere but an Orthodox church? Perhaps I added too much rhetorical flair with the term theocracy, because I think Putin is a very rational leader, but where else do these laws come from except religion?

Putin is a man to be watched, listened to, but not trusted. I think everything he does is carefully planned and calculated for a specific effect and purpose. While I think what he wrote in the article is right, or at least needed saying, don't forget that it's a political play.

Edited by Almagest, 12 September 2013 - 07:39 PM.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#23    Jeremiah65

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:33 PM

Isn't it a wonderful world we live in? (/sarcasm)

I'm not one of the Putin sycophants.  (Though the memes of him tend to make me laugh alot.)  I respect him as I would any world leader... always a bit of reservation.  I was not offended by Putin's letter.  I also know there are a lot of people that did take offense to it.  They hate hearing the truth that American exceptionalism is simply a "hope" and not a reality.  Sometimes getting whacked in the head is painful...but if it opens someone's eyes...oh well...

Our world is in madness.  No one can tell the difference in propaganda and fact.  Who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.  Who is a rebel and who is a traitor.  Get what I am saying?  Twists and turns...always another facet, always another secret.

For every "fact" you can find, someone will produce contradictory "facts"...you are left choosing on gut instinct or faith.

I do not think Putin is a "good guy"...I don't think he is a bad guy either.

He is not better or worse than any politician here in the USA.


I'm a cynical, sarcastic assh**e...sorry, I can't help it.

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#24    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:13 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 12 September 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:


I'm a cynical, sarcastic assh**e...sorry, I can't help it.

But I agree with you like 99% of the time. What does that make me? :cry:

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#25    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:29 PM

View PostMiskatonicGrad, on 12 September 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

But I agree with you like 99% of the time. What does that make me? :cry:
sane.

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I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#26    ninjadude

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 01:45 AM

View Postand then, on 12 September 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Never thought I'd live to be lectured by a KGB boss.

"former". The KGB collapsed in 1991.

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#27    acidhead

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 03:45 AM

View PostJeremiah65, on 12 September 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Isn't it a wonderful world we live in? (/sarcasm)

I'm not one of the Putin sycophants.  (Though the memes of him tend to make me laugh alot.)  I respect him as I would any world leader... always a bit of reservation.  I was not offended by Putin's letter.  I also know there are a lot of people that did take offense to it.  They hate hearing the truth that American exceptionalism is simply a "hope" and not a reality.  Sometimes getting whacked in the head is painful...but if it opens someone's eyes...oh well...

Our world is in madness.  No one can tell the difference in propaganda and fact.  Who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.  Who is a rebel and who is a traitor.  Get what I am saying?  Twists and turns...always another facet, always another secret.

For every "fact" you can find, someone will produce contradictory "facts"...you are left choosing on gut instinct or faith.

I do not think Putin is a "good guy"...I don't think he is a bad guy either.

He is not better or worse than any politician here in the USA.


I'm a cynical, sarcastic assh**e...sorry, I can't help it.

Collectivism.

Patriotism is the highest form of collectivism.

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#28    Raptor Witness

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:35 AM

The only caveat I see to this letter, is if Putin suddenly sees himself as the leading peace maker in the Middle East, he could be more tempted to wade in at a later date, thus potentially setting the stage for a self-fulfilling prophecy. One that he's not smart enough to believe in, or worse, he already does.

His recent visit on July 15, 2013 to an island in the Baltic Sea, called "Hogland," also known as Gog land, is a possible example.

He would, on the same day he visited "Gog" land, say these words ... “Such a present to us. Merry Christmas,” about Edward Snowden.



Given Putin's references to "God"  in his letter, and for those who are unfamiliar with the potentially deliberate significance of his "Gog" land timing, check out Ezekiel 38, and Rev. 20:7-10.

I would side with the Fox News crowd on this one, and while the outcome may be inevitably unavoidable, I've long believed that if the U.S. avoids attacking Iran, the time-line of history could be changed. Would it buy time for more grace? I don't know.

I've also suspected that if allowed, we could write a better ending for ourselves. That would be nice, but it can't happen without an agreement that no self-fulfilling prophecies, should be allowed.

View PostRaptor Witness, on 06 December 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

It's hard not to admire the U.S. military at a time like this, because the potential for good here is great.

There may be a chance to change the course of history at this juncture, but I would not wade in without the Russians. There's no reason that Putin can't add "hero" to his resume.

My strong sense is that Panetta and Hillary are negatives here, and I'm a big fan of hers.  This calls for a special knight on the chess board, possibly a European statesman with some past ties to Syria's wellbeing.



Edited by Raptor Witness, 13 September 2013 - 07:44 AM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#29    Norbert the Incredible

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

so Putin visited an island called Hogland, and that somehow has something to do with God? Perhaps there was a typographical error somewhere/
If it had been Gotland, it might have been slightly more plausible, perhaps.

Quote

if the U.S. avoids attacking Iran, the time-line of history could be changed.
If the U.S. avoids attacking Iran? It has to in order to fulfil the Prophecy, then?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#30    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 12 September 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Quote

No they did not. You'll have to forgive me but my understanding is limited on the situation. I was merely posing the question to highlight the potential hypocrisy on Putin's part. Now that I've discovered that Yeltsin was President at the time the point is moot, so I retract it. :)
Understood, not a problem.


Quote

I'd counter with the lack of proof is proof that he has. Do you think he'd allow something like that to be traced back to him? :P Of course if it's true there could be an assassin en route to my place the second I click post, so if this account stops posting soon I offer that as further proof.
Oh I think you're safe :)
The problem with this one is the the media have decided that Putin is guilty, and even though evidence has come to light of Chechen and other gansters being responsible, the media will not step back, probably to save face. Putin's KGB career is a convenient fact to bash him over the head with, even though he was very junior and essentialy a clerk collating information, not a spy, assasin or anything like that. Reality is boring so the media "sex it up".


Quote

So then, what is the rationale for laws against Religious Offence? Around the world homosexuals are gradually gaining the right to be married, yet in Russia homosexuality, and it's "promotion", has been criminalized. Do you think the members of P*ssy Riot would have been jailed if they performed their stunt anywhere but an Orthodox church? Perhaps I added too much rhetorical flair with the term theocracy, because I think Putin is a very rational leader, but where else do these laws come from except religion?
This is a cultural issue, not really political at all. What Poosy Riot did was genuinely offensive to the majority of Russians. In any country sometimes what is actually done is not so bad in absolute terms, for instance, they staged a musical performance, not killing or stealing from people, but there is a need for punishment to reflect public anger. If there is public outrage against something, and the outrage was not synthetic, should leaders in any country ignore this outrage?  Their song was full of foul language, and they were not dressed properly for being in a church. This would be offensive in any country, and in some would have gotten them the death penality. Imagine if they had done this in Westminster Abbey or St Peter's in Rome? The cathedral of Christ The Saviour in Moscow is the Premier Orthodox cathedral, if they had protested in another church I doubt they would be in prison, castigated and probably fined is all. Modern Russia has only existed for 22 years, and it is too soon to criticise about this or that. Religion was not banned during Soviet times, though listening to politicians and the media anybody would think it was. Putin, the KGB "agent", had been baptised in Leningrad, hardly repression of religion. An atheist state is simply that the organs of the state do not work to any religious agenda and the pagentry of the state, it's commemerations etc are without religious symbols. It does not mean a country and a people without religion. There is far less show of "state religion" in Russia than say the UK, so I don't really understand were this nonsense about Russia becoming a theocrasy comes from, other than black propaganda. I notice that American Presidents usualy end an address to the nation with the phrase "And may God continue to bless America", should I take this as evidence of the US being a theocrasy? or take the WBC as representative of American religion? It's all about the cold war continuing in the minds of some US and UK politicians and media barons. And of course one particular poster on this forum who sees reds under the bed in nearly all his posts. And in all that ramble I nearly forgot to adress one of your key points. It should not be forgotten that the "anti gay" law is specifically aimed at the under eighteens and cleaning up some really bad "stuff" on Russian social network sites.Is that bad?



Quote

Putin is a man to be watched, listened to, but not trusted. I think everything he does is carefully planned and calculated for a specific effect and purpose. While I think what he wrote in the article is right, or at least needed saying, don't forget that it's a political play
And of course any politician in any country should look to their own country's interests before that of any others, or they should not be in power. Russia is in a financial mess still, not as bad as it was, but not good. There is no possibility of Russia wanting to send tanks across Europe, as the usual tiresome propagandist/s keep saying. That would mean WWIII and the death of everybody, and what for?  To understand Putin's political model then it is necessary to read Hegel, not Lenin or Hitler. I think Dubya actually did more invadin killin and a slaughterin than Putin would even have nightmares about












Edited by Kaa-Tzik, 13 September 2013 - 11:15 AM.





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