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A question for all skeptics


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#16    Almagest

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:27 PM

View Postdlonewolf85, on 16 September 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

No, hearing voices would imply that our ears work just fine. It's having imaginary conversations inside one's head that could be a problem...

You don't engage in inner dialogues?

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#17    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

The OP poses a question that assumes an event that hasn't happened and is therefore not "admissible."

I would say if I heard a god speak to me, I would seek out a qualified doctor and get some medicine and some mental treatment.


#18    Leonardo

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 16 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

If one day you woke up with another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God, what would you ask this voice to do in order to prove such a claim?

For me, there could be no proof - but for God, well that would be another matter.

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#19    dlonewolf85

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:41 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 16 September 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

You don't engage in inner dialogues?

You mean like 'thinking'? I do think, and I contemplate, yes. But I certainly do not wake up in the morning with another voice inside my head, telling me that it's the voice of so and so... I hope you get the picture. It's usually more of a monologue when people express their inner thoughts to themselves or have to make choices inside their minds.

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#20    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 16 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

If one day you woke up with another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God, what would you ask this voice to do in order to prove such a claim?

Edit: I just saw what my picture quote was still set to, but let me assure you--I donot hear voices.  Just a coincidence.

Get a glass of water, set it on the counter, don't touch it after that, tell "god" to knock the glass of water over.

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#21    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

Talking to yourself, even if you don't verbalize, is a bad habit that wastes time and interferes with appropriate mindfulness.  The mind works fine without putting everything into words -- that is done for talking to other people.


#22    Tiggs

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:04 PM

View Posteight bits, on 16 September 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Tiggs

And nice to see you, too. That's just the sort of thing I'd expect Carl Jung's God to do (well, not wholesale, but if P=NP, contrary to expectation, and I had a clue, then I would have a life's work cut out for me, and have solved efficient semi-prime factoring as a side effect). However, there were plenty of people who confidently thought they had proven Fermat's Theorem before anybody did, and that correct proof took a long time to formalize (not just one person's work). It's a hard test to evaluate, and I would have to live with this God while awaiting the results.

You could always refuse to listen to him until his credentials are verified.

But, all in all -  I'm pretty okay with things which are fast to verify, but are currently privileged. Checking two numbers multiply to give another number doesn't take that long. Nor does verifying equations for, say, every nth prime (for the first 100k or so of them, anyway).

Obviously - if he can prove P=NP then I'm all ears - but I'm fairly easily pleased, in the big scale of things.

Quote

But more than that, I would be disappointed if my personal God could not slip any cognitive challenge I might propose. As you may recall, in the original The Day the Earth Stood Still, Mr Carpenter proved his bona fides (as allegorical Jesus, so indeed, as some people's God) by altering one line in the professor's work in progress, pointing to the resolution of a stumper. Note that he didn't wait for the challenge, he anticipated it, and he didn't do requests or encores.

As to the coins, my Jungian God (who, by an amazing coincidence, would appear to be a hamster and say many things I would say) would reply "Then it wouldn't be random, would it?" And, as I mentioned to Number 1, there wouldn't be any call for proof anyway. The conscious experience of Jung's God isn't conducive to being prosecutor, judge and jury in one's own case:
One man's random is another man's certainty. Random numbers in a computer are only random if you don't know the underlying formula. If it's random from the perspective of the person flipping the coin - then that's random enough for me.


Quote

I think it is material to the question that I have interior mental experience of the candidate, and only that, as opposed to encountering God in other ways. I wouldn't apply tests, because I wouldn't be a reliable evaluator of them, and because it is unclear whether the God would consent to be tested, or that I would care if it didn't.
If God doesn't consent to being tested - then, given that he knows I'll ask for privileged information as proof that's he's not, say, someone using this sort of technology - I doubt he'll show up.


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#23    Sherapy

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Posteight bits, on 16 September 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Number 1

Nice to see you. Prove what? So far, you have described something similar to Carl Jung's God.

http://uncertaintist...owledge-of-god/

So, I would  brew up some coffee and settle in for a nice chat. Some of what follows, addressed to Tiggs, ampilifes on the above.


Tiggs

And nice to see you, too. That's just the sort of thing I'd expect Carl Jung's God to do (well, not wholesale, but if P=NP, contrary to expectation, and I had a clue, then I would have a life's work cut out for me, and have solved efficient semi-prime factoring as a side effect). However, there were plenty of people who confidently thought they had proven Fermat's Theorem before anybody did, and that correct proof took a long time to formalize (not just one person's work). It's a hard test to evaluate, and I would have to live with this God while awaiting the results.

But more than that, I would be disappointed if my personal God could not slip any cognitive challenge I might propose. As you may recall, in the original The Day the Earth Stood Still, Mr Carpenter proved his bona fides (as allegorical Jesus, so indeed, as some people's God) by altering one line in the professor's work in progress, pointing to the resolution of a stumper. Note that he didn't wait for the challenge, he anticipated it, and he didn't do requests or encores.

As to the coins, my Jungian God (who, by an amazing coincidence, would appear to be a hamster and say many things I would say) would reply "Then it wouldn't be random, would it?" And, as I mentioned to Number 1, there wouldn't be any call for proof anyway. The conscious experience of Jung's God isn't conducive to being prosecutor, judge and jury in one's own case:



I think it is material to the question that I have interior mental experience of the candidate, and only that, as opposed to encountering God in other ways. I wouldn't apply tests, because I wouldn't be a reliable evaluator of them, and because it is unclear whether the God would consent to be tested, or that I would care if it didn't.
8ty, i loved your thoughts on this. Very interesting take.


In considering this question myself, my g-d would have to verify itself via my blueprint of what constitutes godhood in my schema. Yet, this tells zip/nada/nil/zero of g-d,  it tells me only about what I define as g-d and how I prove this to myself.

For me, it is about as lackluster as one can get and would be along the lines of  G-d would not be contingent on an entity of a belief system, but my existing level(standard) of greatest behavior one could aspire too. My acceptable evidence/standard of that which is g-d like behavior versus that which isn't follows like this:  surprise me with something I don't know about myself and that this unknown in some way betters me and those I come into contact with -- (in other words that this revelation pans out in reality.)  Nothing more or nothing less and all this would serve for me is a justification that my g-d(standard) has passed my personal lie detector test, and now may have some merit in the course of my daily life to be applied for a test run to experience the value it may or may not have.

That is about as much mileage I can get eek out of the question-- it is truly personal --end of story.

Edited by Sherapy, 16 September 2013 - 07:53 PM.




#24    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:58 PM

A lot of your tests would not rule out mental illness. Somone with a mental illness may knock over the water and be completely unaware that they did it, and they may also solve a math problem ( being totally wrong) and still believe it solved.

When I see and hear things that others cannot, I neither accept nor deni it's existence. I act as if both realities are real and choose to carry it until useful.  All things are manifestations of something.

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#25    SpiritWriter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:15 PM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 16 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

If one day you woke up with another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God, what would you ask this voice to do in order to prove such a claim?

Edit: I just saw what my picture quote was still set to, but let me assure you--I donot hear voices.  Just a coincidence.




Yes I would ask them to proove it and then I would go pray and ask to go back to the old way of communicating with God. It's probably a scary thing to go about listening to a voice claiming to be God, but some people do it. I think with practice, discernment and trust you could begin to truly know the voice of God and follow it. This is what's taught in the scriptures but most people cant handle that so God lets his people be sometimes seen as lunatics.  When we as the saints begin to allow those titles to effectively apply to our personalities, perhaps it is then when we go mad and forget who our God is to us.

Some hear the audible voice of God on a frequent basis and those may be refered to as prophets and prophetesses. They have a certain message to tell. Some hear it on occassion and it is a refreshment to the soul. Some are being tormented and still they will know the power of God, though the devil's voice is also audible. People who hear voices should know they are special and should have loving support around them, and/or be strong, loving and supportive, thus if the voice truly be God, God would be their strength and use that prophets body as a vessel.


Much love and peace.

;)



Oh, and what would I ask to prove it? Hmm, I would ask that it would start showing me supernatural things as well as blessings, spiritual and physical. I probably wouldn't ask for an exact performance but if I could I would ask to be taken out of the body and come face to face with the Holy Spirit and that whatever act was performed for me would let me know for sure that it was God. Or maybe perform a miracle for someones health, something like that.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 16 September 2013 - 08:40 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#26    Tiggs

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:46 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 16 September 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

A lot of your tests would not rule out mental illness. Somone with a mental illness may knock over the water and be completely unaware that they did it, and they may also solve a math problem ( being totally wrong) and still believe it solved.
True, but the thing about solutions to math problems is that you can get other people to verify them, independently.

If I'm at the stage of mental illness where I think that the people I ask to independently verify the result for me are telling me that it's correct when it's actually not -  then hearing a voice in my head is probably the least of my issues.


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#27    dlonewolf85

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 16 September 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

Yes I would ask them to proove it and then I would go pray and ask to go back to the old way of communicating with God. It's probably a scary thing to go about listening to a voice claiming to be God, but some people do it. I think with practice, discernment and trust you could begin to truly know the voice of God and follow it. This is what's taught in the scriptures but most people cant handle that so God lets his people be sometimes seen as lunatics.  When we as the saints begin to allow those titles to effectively apply to our personalities, perhaps it is then when we go mad and forget who our God is to us.

Some hear the audible voice of God on a frequent basis and those may be refered to as prophets and prophetesses. They have a certain message to tell. Some hear it on occassion and it is a refreshment to the soul. Some are being tormented and still they will know the power of God, though the devil's voice is also audible. People who hear voices should know they are special and should have loving support around them, and/or be strong, loving and supportive, thus if the voice truly be God, God would be their strength and use that prophets body as a vessel.


Much love and peace.

;)


I have to disagree. People who hear 'voices' in their head should know that they're NOT special but equal to any other person in this world. Imagining a voice in one's head and then pretending it is something divine, isn't anything that 'most people can't handle' as you put it. Almost anybody can daydream and/or imagine. I believe it's human nature to want to feel special. Some people could just imagine stuff that makes them feel like they have a special relationship with some god or a deity, doesn't that sound even a bit possible to you? A fact can be something very different from an alleged truth. And you sound as though you really really "know" stuff that the rest of the people probably don't or may not "get it" even if they do. It's not that I do not understand what you're saying, it's just that you could be right, but only philosophically. I hope that my point gets through to you also.

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#28    rustygh

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 September 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

The OP poses a question that assumes an event that hasn't happened and is therefore not "admissible."

I would say if I heard a god speak to me, I would seek out a qualified doctor and get some medicine and some mental treatment.
Ditto,  although only after using some type of recorder close to my head to make sure I wasn't drugged and implanted with a speaker.  LOL


#29    SpiritWriter

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:44 PM

View Postdlonewolf85, on 16 September 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:




I have to disagree. People who hear 'voices' in their head should know that they're NOT special but equal to any other person in this world. Imagining a voice in one's head and then pretending it is something divine, isn't anything that 'most people can't handle' as you put it. Almost anybody can daydream and/or imagine. I believe it's human nature to want to feel special. Some people could just imagine stuff that makes them feel like they have a special relationship with some god or a deity, doesn't that sound even a bit possible to you? A fact can be something very different from an alleged truth. And you sound as though you really really "know" stuff that the rest of the people probably don't or may not "get it" even if they do. It's not that I do not understand what you're saying, it's just that you could be right, but only philosophically. I hope that my point gets through to you also.

Im not talking about day dreaming or imagining. The OP is suggesting that a person wakes one morning and can suddenly "hear" a voice who calls itself God. This is his proposition, not mine and my response was for that context. I also agree that we are all special, not one person more than another. But, if a person can hear a clear and audible voice, who claims and then proves itself to be God, I'd say we have ourselves a unique situation....

Edited by SpiritWriter, 16 September 2013 - 10:47 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#30    Frank Merton

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:55 PM

I have philosophical reasons (a perfect being would not use imperfect human language but would have better methods) for thinking that God would not communicate with individuals in hearable words.





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