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A question for all skeptics


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#31    Whisperer

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:19 PM

HI,

Based on my understanding current at this time;

Unipolar event...immortal consciousness...God forces ...eternal and therefore subject to boredom, result....
gives rise to bipolar universe..IC (imortal consciousness) avatars = us, full on interest, boredom abated.

Process...rules of the game....

2 Teams....White and Black T-Shirts ( good guys, bad guys)


White shirts code of conduct ... Ask unsolicited contact who they 'play' for under the terms of 'The Great Game' and completed with something akin to;
By order of the 'White Brother hood of Man', unarguable and must comply...

The response returned should then be a 'Forced' truth...

Penalties...ejected from the 'Great Game'....

No imortal consciousness wants that and so they will 'play by the rules'....

otherwise, see a psychiatrist.

Edit, wrong order due to software...

Edited by mumanster, 16 September 2013 - 11:22 PM.

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Make not an image of me, nor offer unto me the limitations of form...
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#32    Almagest

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:33 AM

View Postdlonewolf85, on 16 September 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

You mean like 'thinking'? I do think, and I contemplate, yes. But I certainly do not wake up in the morning with another voice inside my head, telling me that it's the voice of so and so... I hope you get the picture. It's usually more of a monologue when people express their inner thoughts to themselves or have to make choices inside their minds.

Oh I do. I was just ribbing you a bit. As someone who is already a bit mentally ill, I'd be checking myself in after hearing a foreign voice in my head.


View PostFrank Merton, on 16 September 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

I have philosophical reasons (a perfect being would not use imperfect human language but would have better methods) for thinking that God would not communicate with individuals in hearable words.

I think Mathematics is the language of the universe, and therefore the language of God if there is one.

Life is the result of the struggle between dynamic opposites Form & Chaos, Substance & Oblivion, Light & Dark And all the infinite variations of Yin & Yang
When the pendulum swings in favour of one It will eventually swing in favour of it's opposite Thus the balance of the universe is maintained

-Jeru the Damaja

#33    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:42 AM

View PostTiggs, on 16 September 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:


True, but the thing about solutions to math problems is that you can get other people to verify them, independently.

If I'm at the stage of mental illness where I think that the people I ask to independently verify the result for me are telling me that it's correct when it's actually not -  then hearing a voice in my head is probably the least of my issues.
It dosnt work that way. A paranoid scitzophrenic will only incorporate the people telling him its wrong into the delusion as lieing or conspiring. If you are hearing voices from god ( and its not really god... I'm not one to rule that out just yet), then you are already there. Some rescent research on scitzophrenia has shown the people with the illness will do something but will not realize they have done it, and then they become certain that Somone else or sonething else did it.

Years ago I got very drunk at a bar. ( Native Americans should not drink ;) I don't anymore I was young and stupid ) I blacked out and thrashed my car looking for a spare key because I actually tossed mine on the roof of the building knowing I might try to drive home. . Then went back into the bar. I had no recollection of thrashing my car, and indeed I was going to try to drive home. I got upset because I became convinced that the bouncers thrashed my car trying to get my spare key.

Lets just say it was a wild night ;)

The point is that it only takes a few cognitive gaps before things can go crazy wrong.



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#34    AtlantisRises

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 06:12 AM

Why do I keep going to bed with stunningly beautiful creatures and waking up next to something I'd rather gnaw my arm off then wake up?

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#35    Frank Merton

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:29 AM

In other words, if you are sane and hear voices, you will seek medical treatment, but you won't hear voices unless you are insane, and then you won't.


#36    Frank Merton

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 17 September 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

I think Mathematics is the language of the universe, and therefore the language of God if there is one.
I had something in mind more along the lines of stories and images and ideas.


#37    eight bits

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

Generally

To hear a voice, or experience a "second" interior voice is not in itself compelling evidence of mental illness. It is a modality of thought. The standards of illness are that it bothers me (this wouldn't) or it interferes with normal functioning (we'll see whether or not it does). Or, if you prefer a religious spin, let it be for voices as Jesus said of prophets, "by their fruits you shall know them." The Buddha gave similar advice. Good enough for me, at least for starters.


Tiggs

Nevertheless, I wish I had a dollar for every time I have questioned the phrase "(s)he couldn't possibly have known that." So far, always with some success. My presumption remains that if a person is the vehicle of expression of a cognitive feat, then that person is the one who performed the cognitive feat. It is the same for the allegedly miraculous poetry of a revealed religion, the stage psychic, and onto the occasional poster here... um, ouija boards, say. Cold sober and ceritfied sane, human beings are lousy judges of what we know.

And surely you didn't mean to suggest that if P=NP, and somebody ever proves that, then that somebody couldn't possibly be thee or me :) . {I have a sense of deja vu that I have typed that sentence before. But seriously, which is more likely? Some part of our cognitive apparatus sees the break on a wickedly hard problem, or the Creator and Sustainer of the Uinverse stopped by for a chat?}

"I know somehing, I don't know how I know it, therefore God told me" is exactly "god of the gaps."

Frank

Quote

I have philosophical reasons (a perfect being would not use imperfect human language but would have better methods) for thinking that God would not communicate with individuals in hearable words.
Human language is an excellent method for communicating some things. Also, since the OP is hanging back, I'll just assume that "another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God," was not intended to exclude other sensory happenings which you would experience as personal to you but originating outside of yourself, with a felt inclination to attribute them to God.

I once had the singular (for me) experience of reasoning out a math problem in a kinesthetic "representation." I felt, vividly and fully engaging my attention - as if it were my actual situation, what it would "feel like" for my body and its parts to be the abstract things in the math problem and the mathematical operations involved were displacements of my voluntary musculature in space. I "danced" the solution, or "tai chi'd" it, or something like that.

Both the basic idea (which did successfully solve the problem), and the "strategy" of reasoning through kinesthesia presented themselves unbidden. I did, however, consciously develop the basic idea through this way of thinking... it wasn't quite the experience some people have of suddenly knowing the whole solution to something, fully worked out.

Finally, if the OP's  hypothetical experience were similar to many other real reports of unusual communication, it could well turn out that, on reflection, I would realize that I had had other, earlier encounters with the "person or idea" behind what is now a voice. Perhaps these took some other form, and I ignored those "messages." Now the "person or idea" is reduced to manifesting as an unignorable voice, on pain of not achieving my conscious awareness at all.

Sheri

Yes, I think something like this is entirely personal. If something did happen to me like what the OP described, then I would assume it was something I needed to explore, not necessarily something I would be in any rush to "test." I certainly would accept that the source-of-the-voice might identify itself that way, but neither be that nor intend deceit, but rather be asserting kinship with experiences that others have attributed to religious beings.

I will pretty much hear anybody out. Surely any voice in my head deserves no less :).

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#38    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 17 September 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

In other words, if you are sane and hear voices, you will seek medical treatment, but you won't hear voices unless you are insane, and then you won't.
Yes! Beautifully put. It's a very sane thing to question ones sanity.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#39    JMPD1

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 10:06 AM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 16 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

If one day you woke up with another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God, what would you ask this voice to do in order to prove such a claim?


For starters, the voice would have to tell me something that I do not know, that can be verified by outside sources.  Or, predict an event of momentous importance, with a clearly defined date and details of the event.

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#40    Tiggs

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:38 PM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 17 September 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

It dosnt work that way.
It does for people who experience positive hallucinations.

Either way - If there's no effective personal test for madness - then personally testing for it is a waste of time. They have guys in white coats for that.

Testing that the voice in your head isn't someone impersonating God, however - that's probably worth spending a little bit of personal time working out.

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#41    libstaK

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 September 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

The OP poses a question that assumes an event that hasn't happened and is therefore not "admissible."

I would say if I heard a god speak to me, I would seek out a qualified doctor and get some medicine and some mental treatment.

View Postrustygh, on 16 September 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

Ditto,  although only after using some type of recorder close to my head to make sure I wasn't drugged and implanted with a speaker.  LOL

View PostFrank Merton, on 17 September 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

In other words, if you are sane and hear voices, you will seek medical treatment, but you won't hear voices unless you are insane, and then you won't.

What we have here seems to me to be the primary reason God would NOT talk to a person as a voice in their head - the listener would just think they were nuts and go see a shrink, which is not conducive to getting one's message across.

If God were to appear before me OR even more poignantly bring me directly into HIS presence then unless I woke up in a strange white padded room strapped into a straight jacket sometime later I might consider it was God - he would know better than me what would convince me but a good start would be some precise predictions and a few miracles for the sick and suffering for me to witness first hand.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#42    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostGodsnmbr1, on 16 September 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

If one day you woke up with another voice in your head, and this voice claimed to be God, what would you ask this voice to do in order to prove such a claim?
I'd ask it if I was schizophrenic.
Doug

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#43    Tiggs

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:46 PM

View Posteight bits, on 17 September 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Tiggs

Nevertheless, I wish I had a dollar for every time I have questioned the phrase "(s)he couldn't possibly have known that." So far, always with some success. My presumption remains that if a person is the vehicle of expression of a cognitive feat, then that person is the one who performed the cognitive feat. It is the same for the allegedly miraculous poetry of a revealed religion, the stage psychic, and onto the occasional poster here... um, ouija boards, say. Cold sober and ceritfied sane, human beings are lousy judges of what we know.

And surely you didn't mean to suggest that if P=NP, and somebody ever proves that, then that somebody couldn't possibly be thee or me :) . {I have a sense of deja vu that I have typed that sentence before. But seriously, which is more likely? Some part of our cognitive apparatus sees the break on a wickedly hard problem, or the Creator and Sustainer of the Uinverse stopped by for a chat?}

"I know somehing, I don't know how I know it, therefore God told me" is exactly "god of the gaps."
I'm sure that there are parts of my brain happily unspinning the solution to RSA2048 in background processing -  not least because I've asked it to do so.

If I were to come up with a solution for that - that wouldn't entirely surprise me. If I were to come up with a solution for every ridiculous maths problem I could think of posing - and I can think of some fairly ridiculous ones - then that would be more surprising. Admittedly, if part of my brain has decided to pretend it's God, then it may conveniently suggest to me a list of problems that it knows that it's already solved.

Do all of that and predict a hundred coin flips, however? Then I'm not sure there are many options left, at that point.

There's a decent chance I'd be clinically insane. If it turned out that I wasn't, then the only other two alternatives that spring readily to mind are that I'm either speaking to the creator, or a part of my brain which has managed to decode some fairly deep rules regarding how the universe works.

Maybe it's unspun P=NP and it has a rather simple equation to predict the outcome of complex interacting events that we would otherwise regard as being random. Such as coin flips.

Either way, if something with that level of understanding of the Universe has decided that it needs to urgently communicate with my conscious mind, then I suspect I had better listen.

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#44    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:20 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 16 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Talking to yourself, even if you don't verbalize, is a bad habit that wastes time and interferes with appropriate mindfulness.  The mind works fine without putting everything into words -- that is done for talking to other people.
I do not understand this. My mind works entirely in words (i cannot see visual images inmy mind)

There are multiple intelligences in a human's mind and multiple ways of thinking. One can problem solve by separating ones mind into a number of thinking compartments and getting each compartment to analyse a problem, then report back on results to the "overmind. " The one can use the "total mind" to analyse  the results of creative intuitive, analytical, or emotional reasoning Every waking minute of every day my mind is conversing with itslef; learning, growing, and entertaining itslef.

In my understanding human thought is intricately linked to human linguistic abilty Without an abilty to think verbally, we could not speak, and vice versa.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#45    Rlyeh

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 09:35 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 September 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

I do not understand this. My mind works entirely in words (i cannot see visual images inmy mind)
Do you dream with words too?





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