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Death never actually occurs?


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#1    andy4

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:02 AM

Please try and stick with me through this, as my understanding of these subjects is somewhat minute. I would truly like for someone with a better knowledge on the subject to correct me if any of the following is at all wrong.

From what quantum physics tells us, the world around us reacts to our consciousness. From what I understand there are 2 states to where our consciousness is reacted upon in the quantum world. One is quantum superposition, when we aren't observing something. The other is well, the world around us when we are there to observe it. I gather from this that when we die, we just go back into quantum superposition, because relative to you and your consciousness, the world no longer exists relative to you and only you. Just want to make that clear, that it's only there when you experience it. Now going into the subject of sleep, is it at all possible that when we are asleep the same quantum superposition occurs? We are obviously not aware of the physical world when sleeping, and our observing consciousness is effectively all but gone. To take it one step further, why is sleep so instantaneous to us? To me, if when asleep if we are actually in quantum entanglement, we time travel while sleeping, due to the fact (I think?) that particles such as photons (but not limited to) travel at the speed of light, hence the time dilation while we sleep. Due to us literally being, relative to just you again, in quantum superposition. Now I will admit that my understanding of this subject is rather small, but I would appreciate some input, and honestly let me know if this is all a bunch of nonsense. Please specify for me though. Any thoughts on this?

Edited by andy4, 18 September 2013 - 01:06 AM.

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#2    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:21 AM

The problem occurs when using quantum physics at the macroscopic level.

Answers to you question is, No - you do not turn into a superposition when you sleep.

However we just dont know how the quantum world really effects the macro, until then answers remain speculation. Best theory so far I beleive is Decoherence.

Watch this space

#3    and then

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:26 AM

I don't understand the sciences of this but I have believed for many years that death is a kind of transition that we cannot understand and that we instantly become aware of a different dimension.  So this might fit into the conversation :)  Thanks for posting.

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#4    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:29 AM

View Postand then, on 18 September 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

I don't understand the sciences of this but I have believed for many years that death is a kind of transition that we cannot understand and that we instantly become aware of a different dimension.  So this might fit into the conversation :)  Thanks for posting.

The problem we face here is the theory of consiousness, we do not know enough on this subject to come to a correct answer, however, if consiousness is simply and electrial signal in the brain, then it stands to reason that the consiousness ceases at the time th brain ceases creating electrial charges. ( I have my own theorys and do not beleive it to be true - however we must consider this option as a very viable one)

Watch this space

#5    andy4

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 18 September 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

The problem occurs when using quantum physics at the macroscopic level.

Answers to you question is, No - you do not turn into a superposition when you sleep.

However we just dont know how the quantum world really effects the macro, until then answers remain speculation. Best theory so far I beleive is Decoherence.

I've also pondered that myself, quite a few times as far as how or if superposition actually occurs. This was just my bit of speculation however. Thank you for the reply!

To and then; your welcome! :) I also believe that death is just a transition and that we exist eternally, in one form or another.

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#6    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:39 AM

Well there are some things I would say about this thought experiment that don't mesh entirely with QM, but it is an interesting musing. I have often wondered myself if altered states of consciousness are sort of a superposition of consciousness. The problem of course is that if you are aware if it and can remember it, then it's being measured and therefore cannot be in superposition.

You are going to take a lot of flack from the local empirinazis ;) for suggesting that consciousness causes collapse of wave functions. It's more simply the fact that it can be known. But there are strong arguments that indeed the base of this is an observer. As if reality were a giant VR machine.

I prefer to think of sleep, altered states of consciousness, and even death as merely changing a channel.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 18 September 2013 - 05:06 AM.

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#7    charmcph

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:43 AM

Interesting subject,

I guess I have to believe theres more after death. I've had a couple experiences


.... drowned when I was 12, remember couldn't breath anymore, gulping in water, floating to bottom, then seeing white, then hearing and seeing a hand reach for me and telling me it wasn't time for me. I remember the quiteness, as no sound, remember how pretty the water was, it was clear and could see the sun and other people swimming above me. It was a large lake. Then I awoke to a man giving me cpr.

second time.... i was driving and someone went to turn in front of me ..knew I wasn't going to miss them and be a bad crash... yet again..there was the .... no sound, seeing the people in the other cars go by in slow motion, amazed how my car was fitting in between the other cars, ...again hearing a voice say... "not your time".  Then the sound came rushing back, squeal of tires, etc. There was never a crash, I had slipped between cars on the left and cars on the right. Still gives me shivers to think ..how and why?

So yeal I believe there's something or someone waiting for us :)

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#8    andy4

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:49 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 18 September 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

The problem of course is that if you are aware if it and can remember it, then it's being measured and therefore cannot be in superposition.

Alright now lets say that this is true. If one then has an out of body experience, and can observe their body from the outside, does that count as being measured? Or would that be a state of superposition? One or the other has to be true I would think. If you can remember an obe, then it's not in superposition, and therefore consciousness is not confined to the body.
Might be kinda off topic, but it got me thinking.

Edited by andy4, 18 September 2013 - 05:50 AM.

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#9    tipsy_munchkin

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 06:31 AM

View Postandy4, on 18 September 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Please try and stick with me through this, as my understanding of these subjects is somewhat minute. I would truly like for someone with a better knowledge on the subject to correct me if any of the following is at all wrong.

From what quantum physics tells us,

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#10    Rlyeh

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:57 AM

View Postandy4, on 18 September 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

From what quantum physics tells us, the world around us reacts to our consciousness.
I'm aware of no experiment that shows it is our consciousness, and when did our measuring devices become conscious?

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 18 September 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

But there are strong arguments that indeed the base of this is an observer. As if reality were a giant VR machine.
You wouldn't know what the arguments are since you refuse the read the experiment papers.

Edited by Rlyeh, 18 September 2013 - 08:36 AM.


#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

View Postandy4, on 18 September 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:



Alright now lets say that this is true. If one then has an out of body experience, and can observe their body from the outside, does that count as being measured? Or would that be a state of superposition? One or the other has to be true I would think. If you can remember an obe, then it's not in superposition, and therefore consciousness is not confined to the body.
Might be kinda off topic, but it got me thinking.
Any kind of self awareness must be self measurement. That's what self awareness is. I don't think the body or where you are at relative to it has anything to do with it. It would be interesting though and I always thought this is the answer to shrodingers paradox. Certainly if you were put in the black box, you would be able to measure if  you were dead or not. (At least the or not part). I think the cat is perfectly capable of measuring its own status, and therefore cannot ever be in superposition. Now put a system incapable of measurement in the death trap, then we are back to superposition.

Haveing had many OBEs, I can tell you that you are self aware during them. Keenly so.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#12    joc

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:57 AM

The problem lies here:

Quote

the world no longer exists relative to you and only you. Just want to make that clear, that it's only there when you experience it.
We cannot know that this is true.  Most likely, the truth lies somewhere else...closer to the truth is:  One can only experience the 'world' when one is alive.
The problem is that you are taking theories that don't apply in this context and stating them as fact.  The world and everything in it is what it is, whether you are there to observe it or not.  Quantum Physics doesn't change that.  It just analyzes it on a much deeper level than the 5 senses can account for.

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#13    andy4

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:10 PM

View Postjoc, on 18 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

The problem lies here:

We cannot know that this is true.  Most likely, the truth lies somewhere else...closer to the truth is:  One can only experience the 'world' when one is alive.
The problem is that you are taking theories that don't apply in this context and stating them as fact.  The world and everything in it is what it is, whether you are there to observe it or not.  Quantum Physics doesn't change that.  It just analyzes it on a much deeper level than the 5 senses can account for.

No, I wasn't really trying to state anything as fact, that's why I said my understanding is somewhat small. I understand what you're saying, but what could be defined as "alive?" Is someone in say, a coma experiencing the world, or is it just confined to healthy persons? The world is no longer relevant to that person, because they aren't experiencing it.

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#14    joc

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:42 AM

View Postandy4, on 19 September 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

No, I wasn't really trying to state anything as fact, that's why I said my understanding is somewhat small. I understand what you're saying, but what could be defined as "alive?" Is someone in say, a coma experiencing the world, or is it just confined to healthy persons? The world is no longer relevant to that person, because they aren't experiencing it.
You cannot know what a person in a coma is experiencing or not experiencing.  Alive is defined as 'not dead'.

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#15    Drayno

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:11 AM

Consciousness is something that many philosophers have attempted to explore. Consciousness in correlation to reality.. Both Socrates and Descartes used concepts to illustrate how the conscious mind can be tricked.

Sleep is an altered state; it's a self-hypnosis that is so habitual that we don't realize just how vulnerable we are when we are unconscious. I'd say there are some quantum repercussions from sleep, but I do not profess to know anything about such things.

The underlying conscious mind is always aware to a degree, even during sleep.

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