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It's not "Desire" that makes people suffer...

desire buddhism law of attraction spirituality life

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18 replies to this topic

#16    libstaK

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 19 September 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Living is not simply action, it is also appreciation. If I did not appreciate I would not be living, just existing. I appreciate the life I had yesterday, and the life I am living today. This appreciation brings me joy, and so I desire to live. That I also experience sadness (suffering) is a consequence of this, but does not detract from this joy. To know joy is also to know suffering, and that cannot be escaped. Try to eliminate this suffering, and you eradicate the joy also.
Appreciation is not desire - appreciation is enjoyment of what life is offering - where has that been said to be a problem? I would say, you appreciate what you had yesterday, what today has to offer and what is possible tomorrow and therefore you do not "desire" to live - you actually DO live.

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To build on your analogy, you don't cut down all the trees in the hope of seeing the forest.
It isn't about losing anything - it is about allowing more that is the true joy of living by not being distracted and fascinated with stuff that is not so at the moment and therefore not relevant to this moment.

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The desire to live and the acceptance of death are unconnected things. The suffering of impending death is not because of "the denial of the desire to live", it is the fear of the unknown. Accepting death is not the discarding of the desire to live, it is the acceptance that there are things we do not, possibly cannot, know.
It is attachment to life - the fear of the unknown is about not being alive anymore.

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That's wonderful, when you have food, when you have shelter or when you have water.
When you don't have those things you will suffer, yes - physically, but whether this suffering cripples you psychologically is a choice.

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We don't live in isolation - no man is an island. I could rework that into no-man is an island.
I am not sure why you mention this.  Buddha understood this better than most - he left his little Island of Abundance and self fulfillment to discover why others are suffering, why there is suffering in the world.  It is compassion that is the prominent face of Buddhism - compassion for the suffering and sincere quest to understand the causes.

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The first suggests that the objective of Buddhism - as you explain it - is incompatible with who we are. The second suggests the objective of Buddhism - again, as you explain it - is to isolate ourselves from all that we are.
I can't stop you from seeing it that way if you wish to, regardless of what I say.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#17    Leonardo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 19 September 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Appreciation is not desire - appreciation is enjoyment of what life is offering - where has that been said to be a problem? I would say, you appreciate what you had yesterday, what today has to offer and what is possible tomorrow and therefore you do not "desire" to live - you actually DO live.

I didn't say appreciation is desire, I said..."This appreciation brings me joy, and so I desire to live."

Living is joyful, and everyone desires that. Living is also suffering and, while no-one desires it, that is inescapable. It is incompatible with life to eliminate suffering - such a thing can only be accepted.

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Buddha understood this better than most - he left his little Island of Abundance and self fulfillment to discover why others are suffering, why there is suffering in the world.

Is it not the goal of the Buddhist to emulate Buddha? If so, then that goal is to try to escape that which is inescapable. Surely that only leads to more suffering, as the objective is unattainable?

And that Buddha had to "leave his little island" to understand human suffering only reinforces the point I made with "no man/no-man is an island". The goal of Buddhism seems to be to become what we are not, to deny who we are.

There is an obvious 'out' from this. Buddha never escaped suffering.

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#18    libstaK

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 19 September 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

I didn't say appreciation is desire, I said..."This appreciation brings me joy, and so I desire to live."
It all comes down to our focus - or where our attachment and therefore fascination lies I guess.  

I would say, "This experience brings me joy and thus I live".

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Living is joyful, and everyone desires that. Living is also suffering and, while no-one desires it, that is inescapable. It is incompatible with life to eliminate suffering - such a thing can only be accepted.
Those are facts in a world of duality it is true both happen to everyone.  It is the starting pointing of the journey into the causes of suffering not the logical conclusion - I believe that is where we differ.

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Is it not the goal of the Buddhist to emulate Buddha? If so, then that goal is to try to escape that which is inescapable. Surely that only leads to more suffering, as the objective is unattainable?
I don't know, I am a christian not a Buddhist.  My buddhist interest lies in understanding the causes of suffering and eliminating them as they have distinct similarity to the seven deadly sins, interesting huh?  Well, it is to me anyway.

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And that Buddha had to "leave his little island" to understand human suffering only reinforces the point I made with "no man/no-man is an island". The goal of Buddhism seems to be to become what we are not, to deny who we are.
I would have thought the goal of Buddhism was enlightenment - to comprehend who we are, our true nature.

I have quoted this before from the Gospel of Thomas, a few times I think - I really like it as it sums up quite alot for me:

Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

Basically, we can consume (comprehend) our desire and awaken - or our desire can consume(fascinate and distract) us and we become chained by it - led whereever it chooses to take us and not where we ever would have intended to go.

Edited by libstaK, 19 September 2013 - 02:50 PM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#19    Mr Walker

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostArpee, on 18 September 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Can you bring a counter-argument to what I said about desire? This thread is about the perspective of Desire, not necessarily The Buddha himself, but some Buddhist philosophy OF desire...
Do you desire to live? Then your life will have an element of suffering in it because you know you will die. If you let go of the desire to live, you can live freely without fear. Do you desire physical comfort? Then you are doomed to some disappointment  in life. if you free yourself from the desire  for physical comfort then you no longer need to worry about it, nor fear times when your body is in pain or suffering. You will be free.

In human beings, physical external reality is really meaningless compared with how we chose to view, perceive, respond to, and "feel" that external reality. Eg I can be hungry, cold, wet and alone, and still be filled with peace, joy and wonder, if i chose to. I can be imprisoned in solitary confinement, and yet never feel confined, alone or afraid, because these are all mental "states of mind" which i control.

Edited by Mr Walker, 20 September 2013 - 12:25 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.





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