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Medjugorje


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:15 PM

Medjugorje  Alternative theories have all been excluded

http://www.medjugorj...ories-excluded/

When it comes to apparition experiences, a whole range of alternative explanations are well-known to science. In taking on two among the most obvious – fraud and hallucination – the Croatian psychiatrist Dr. Bartulica concluded in 2006, starting out with his impressions of visionary Vicka Ivankovic when he studied her in the 1980s:

“You have to ask yourself if it is possible that she is deceiving us. The answer is that it might be possible, but if that was the case, all the six seers are capable of this simultaneously for a period of 25 years! That in itself would be a phenomenon! And anyway that cannot be, because it has been established scientifically that their ecstasies are authentic. Besides, there is no such case in the history of psychiatry that six children start simultaneously hallucinating at 6:40 p.m..” , Dr. Bartulica testified.

Edited by Still Waters, 18 September 2013 - 11:39 PM.
Reduced amount of copied text


#2    ambelamba

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:03 AM

Why do you cling onto this kind of stuff so much? I stopped giving a damn about these things and I feel much better.

Oh, I see. It's no different from people like me having another stupid versus debate on some sci-fi forums. Fundamentally, it's all same.

Edited by ambelamba, 19 September 2013 - 06:04 AM.


#3    markdohle

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:08 PM

View Postambelamba, on 19 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Why do you cling onto this kind of stuff so much? I stopped giving a damn about these things and I feel much better.

Oh, I see. It's no different from people like me having another stupid versus debate on some sci-fi forums. Fundamentally, it's all same.

LOL, it is a catholic thing, but I find it interesting and it does help me in my inner life......besides I thilnk there is some truth to what is going on over there my friend.......by the way, I love sci fi.

peace
Mark


#4    Leonardo

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:11 PM

Similarly to ambelamba, I find it curious why religious believers are so fervent about announcing "faith" as being the basis of their religious beliefs, while all the time just as fervently searching for evidence that belief is true.

There is an obvious psychology at work there, but it also seems to me to point to us having some deep-seated need for explanations. It is not enough for us to simply be party to what occurs, we have to try to understand it.

All religion is, to me, is an attempt to understand the human condition by externalising it, which would seem to me to be the wrong approach.

Edited by Leonardo, 19 September 2013 - 01:12 PM.

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#5    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:38 PM

"Why do you cling onto this kind of stuff so much? I stopped giving a damn about these things and I feel much better."
Ambelamba: for the same reason that you continue to address issues for which you have expressed disdain.  People are naturally curious, inquisitive creatures.

"Similarly to ambelamba, I find it curious why religious believers are so fervent about announcing "faith" as being the basis of their religious beliefs, while all the time just as fervently searching for evidence that belief is true."
Leonardo:  We don't seek for evidence to bolster our faith; we already have evidence given to us by God.  Y'all are the ones who require evidence.  What we do seek is deeper understanding of the spiritual aspect of our lives.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#6    dougeaton

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostJ. K., on 19 September 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

"Why do you cling onto this kind of stuff so much? I stopped giving a damn about these things and I feel much better."
Ambelamba: for the same reason that you continue to address issues for which you have expressed disdain.  People are naturally curious, inquisitive creatures.

"Similarly to ambelamba, I find it curious why religious believers are so fervent about announcing "faith" as being the basis of their religious beliefs, while all the time just as fervently searching for evidence that belief is true."
Leonardo:  We don't seek for evidence to bolster our faith; we already have evidence given to us by God.  Y'all are the ones who require evidence.  What we do seek is deeper understanding of the spiritual aspect of our lives.

As an agnostic, I am amazed at the simplistic way that atheist look on religion, when all they to do is read a little deeper, or listen better.  I hope their numbers stay small, for if they don't, we will all be in trouble.  Most of them do tend to be very black and white in their thinking, perhaps many of them have aspergers.  I think that some studies point to that reality.  Below is somthing on it.
http://voxday.blogsp...s-syndrome.html

somthing elsle:
http://www.examiner....-driven-answers

Edited by dougeaton, 19 September 2013 - 03:48 PM.

If you must have  finale absolute answers, then become an  hard nosed atheist or a fundie of any religion, both seem to be black and white thinkers, and have only contempt for those who think differently.

#7    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:09 PM

Mark, what do you suppose is the purpose of these appearances?

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#8    markdohle

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostJ. K., on 19 September 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

Mark, what do you suppose is the purpose of these appearances?

I believe they are prophetic in nature, giving us a message we need to hear.  Here is a good book on the subject if you are interested:  


THE LAST APPARITION by Wayne Wieble.... goes well beyond the basics of what author Wayne Weible calls the most important event happening in the world today the ongoing daily apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary to six chosen visionaries in the little village of Medjugorje in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is packed with vital new information in addition to the basic story of its beginnings and where it is today. Included is startling commentary on the alleged secrets and how they will change the world forever. Underlying the story is the disclosure by the Mother of Jesus that she will never come to earth again in apparition. THE LAST APPARITION is a must read!



This is an incredible book about the most important event in our times. It is comprehensive, taking the reader back to the beginning and yet has new information and also discusses what the future may hold when the apparitions cease. It is impossible to read this book and not know how very much we are loved by our Lady, and therefore, by God who has sent her.She is calling everyone to wake up,return to God and pray, pray, pray.

Book review:  Wayne writes in an engaging manner that will take you there, with the visionaries,to this amazing place, as the story of Medjugorje unfolds.It includes the stories of the priests who have been most involved with Medjugorje and of course, the story of each visionary.Some of our Lady's most profound and most beautiful messages are included. As Wayne puts forth so clearly, this is her final call to mankind. It is ,however, a call by love, to love. I can't recommend it highly enough

http://www.amazon.co...ast appariation


#9    ambelamba

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:10 PM

Is there any guarantee that the whole apparition thing is NOT some not-so-nice prank by beings other than us?

Edited by ambelamba, 19 September 2013 - 11:10 PM.


#10    markdohle

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:52 PM

View Postambelamba, on 19 September 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

Is there any guarantee that the whole apparition thing is NOT some not-so-nice prank by beings other than us?

The church has lots of experience in deciding this kind of thing.....it can take years.  Also no one is obliged to believe in them at all, many Catholics don't.  Most events like this are not accepted.  The message and the spiritual fruits are looked into, as well as miracles, which all three seem to be present in abundance.  The first two are more important than the third.

Peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 19 September 2013 - 11:53 PM.


#11    ambelamba

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:46 AM

Yeah, no matter how much I try you will never accept the uncomfortable interpretation of the phenomenon. Most won't anyway.


#12    markdohle

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:13 PM

View Postambelamba, on 20 September 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Yeah, no matter how much I try you will never accept the uncomfortable interpretation of the phenomenon. Most won't anyway.

This phenomenon is not central to a Christian's faith.  It is just a call to conversion and prayer.  The point is that the mess the world is in is that we don't love one another, don't pray, and don't believe in God.  The missage is somber, not one of consolation at least not for what is happening in the world today.

The first message given to the Children, 32 years ago is this, something very simple"  "I have come to tell you that God exist and that he loves you".  In Fatima, Mary foretold the 2nd world war that would happen if mankind did not return to God.  We Christians have done a lousy job in living out what we believe, yet our failures do not invalidate our faith, it just brings out that we are sinners in need of mercy and redemption.

Here is a web page on Fatima http://www.ignatius....-day/fatima.htm i am not trying to convince you of anything, but I believe the messages are important and very serious, you will think otherwise I believe, that is fine with me, I respect your own search for meaning and truth.

Peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 20 September 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#13    ambelamba

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:11 PM

No, I do believe that something is definitely out there. The ugly truth is that those who have correct view on religion and spirituality tend to have severe flaws, making themselves easy target for believers. H P Lovecraft was one of them.


#14    markdohle

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:22 PM

View Postambelamba, on 20 September 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

No, I do believe that something is definitely out there. The ugly truth is that those who have correct view on religion and spirituality tend to have severe flaws, making themselves easy target for believers. H P Lovecraft was one of them.

I have read Lovecraft, he is a good writer, a chilling one.  I believe in spite of how the world can be at times, it is our deepest longings that speak to us of the nature of reality and that revelation is necessary to get to this truth at ever deeper levels.  In the end,I understand little but have decided to trust.

Peace
mark


#15    DeWitz

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 03:40 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 20 September 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

I have read Lovecraft, he is a good writer, a chilling one.  I believe in spite of how the world can be at times, it is our deepest longings that speak to us of the nature of reality and that revelation is necessary to get to this truth at ever deeper levels.  In the end,I understand little but have decided to trust.

Peace
mark

Mark, can you give your opinion in a little greater detail regarding J.K.'s question, post #7 above?

I'm curious about the Fatima apparitions taking place in 1917, at the height of WWI. Medjugorje happened as the former Yugoslavia was disintegrating. Any connections in your view(s)? Much of the Serb-Croat and Bosnian wars were religious (first Roman Catholics vs. Orthodox; later there were  changing allegiances among Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox) in nature. Is any of that germane, Portugal being primarily Roman Catholic?

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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