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Doubt and faith


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:17 PM

Doubt and faith


Doubt and faith go together, an inner tension that allows choice and seeking.


I have found that those who are sure of themselves, without doubt, come across as angry, myopic and fearful of other ways of thought.  Eric Hoffa said that the sign of a fanatic is one who can't abide anyone believing or thinking differently than them.  A fanatical Christian for instance, if he or she loses their faith will become a fanatical atheist, and vise-verse of course.

How do you deal with doubt?  I am speaking to both atheist and believers.  Even though I am not an atheist, I do believe that 'truth' is something we all seek at ever deeper levels. To stop seeking truth, is to I believe becoming a fanatic of some sort.  Both fundamentalism and atheism are for me too simplistic an answer to the complexity and mystery of our existence.  The big questions can't be answered by science, though without science we would be worse off than we are now.  I believe that both science and religion as well as philosophy are equally important for mankind.

Peace
Mark


#2    davros of skaro

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:31 PM

When I was a child I asked a family member (a simple man) why every thing does not fly off into space.He said the spin of the Earth holds everything down.

I had doubt of this due to my budding reasoning,and sought out my own answer.

I do not consider it faith to believe in the Law of Gravity,because if a more sensible explanation backed by evidence comes forth I would not hold onto old ideas that hypothetically left obsolete by the new.

Why is faith such a good thing especially if tactics of punishment vs reward is involved which leads to the logic inclined to be suspicious of such said faith?

Use doubt to climb the wall of faith that many others bow to.








Edited by davros of skaro, 21 September 2013 - 10:35 PM.

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#3    Almagest

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:07 AM

I think without people doubting long held assumptions we wouldn't have the modern world. And that goes for all assumptions, social, intellectual and religious.

Life is the result of the struggle between dynamic opposites Form & Chaos, Substance & Oblivion, Light & Dark And all the infinite variations of Yin & Yang
When the pendulum swings in favour of one It will eventually swing in favour of it's opposite Thus the balance of the universe is maintained

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#4    Aggie

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:22 AM

I doubt everything and only believe that which can be proven, hence I consider myself an agnostic.
I was raised a Catholic, but I had so many doubts since a very young age, which caused me lots of trouble.


Now I feel free being an Agnostic, as I am prepared and open to any truth (that can be proven, of course, lol).

No matter what happens....never stop believing in people.....never stop believing in love♥♥

#5    Paranoid Android

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:49 AM

To put this as a Confucianism - "before you climb the Mountain of Faith, first swim the River of Doubt". But of course when you climb that mountain droplets of doubt will still be dripping from your clothes and hair, perhaps even being absorbed through your pores. You may reach the peak of the mountain but something from the river still remains.

And that's as it should be. Dealing with doubt is simply part of healthy existence. Without doubt, faith is not challenged, and without challenge faith never grows. I deal with doubt by accepting that I don't know everything, then remain vigilant to any new opportunities to learn.

That's my view, in any case.

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#6    GreenmansGod

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:26 PM

I don't have doubt, I have questions.   When I ask my father why we didn't fly off the Earth, he said, "I don't know." Then he took me to the library and we ask the librarian.  She gave me some science books and a library card.  After we stopped and got ice cream, we went home and he helped me read the books. I will always be thankful for that day.

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#7    Leonardo

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:56 PM

It is human to doubt, but many religions seek to banish doubt from the hearts and minds of the believer. One has only to read of Abraham's readiness to sacrifice Isaac to understand that.

So I would suggest that to a religious believer, true faith means living without any doubt.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

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#8    Frank Merton

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:59 PM

Doubt has a name in psychology -- cognitive dissonance -- and I think not dismissing doubt is the beginning of truth.


#9    markdohle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:00 AM

 Leonardo, on 22 September 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

It is human to doubt, but many religions seek to banish doubt from the hearts and minds of the believer. One has only to read of Abraham's readiness to sacrifice Isaac to understand that.

So I would suggest that to a religious believer, true faith means living without any doubt.

It is impossible to live without doubt, at least I don't know of anyone.  To deny doubt is to become rigid and fearful.  Many of my Christian friends, and those of other paths talk of doubt often.  Books are written about in the Christian world, it is taken for granted.
peace
mark


#10    Frank Merton

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:08 AM

 markdohle, on 23 September 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

It is impossible to live without doubt, at least I don't know of anyone.  To deny doubt is to become rigid and fearful.  Many of my Christian friends, and those of other paths talk of doubt often.  Books are written about in the Christian world, it is taken for granted.
peace
mark
I live quite well without doubt because I live without belief, only opinion, some of which I feel very but never completely sure of.


#11    Nik Xues

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:55 AM

if there is no doubt we will not check our answers.
doubt demands the answers be clear and solid.
seeking evidence is the means to satiate doubt

if there is no faith we will not look for answers.
faith tells us to keep looking, that "the truth is out there".
truth is the by product of heavy faith.

however most people forget this nasty lil bugger called EGO
my answer is correct i need not check it
if it is not "my" answer it is wrong

True Scientists consider all possibilities until they have evidence stating otherwise.
the others are idiots simply waiting for proof of existence.

#12    Mr Walker

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:08 AM

 markdohle, on 21 September 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:


Doubt and faith


Doubt and faith go together, an inner tension that allows choice and seeking.


I have found that those who are sure of themselves, without doubt, come across as angry, myopic and fearful of other ways of thought.  Eric Hoffa said that the sign of a fanatic is one who can't abide anyone believing or thinking differently than them.  A fanatical Christian for instance, if he or she loses their faith will become a fanatical atheist, and vise-verse of course.

How do you deal with doubt?  I am speaking to both atheist and believers.  Even though I am not an atheist, I do believe that 'truth' is something we all seek at ever deeper levels. To stop seeking truth, is to I believe becoming a fanatic of some sort.  Both fundamentalism and atheism are for me too simplistic an answer to the complexity and mystery of our existence.  The big questions can't be answered by science, though without science we would be worse off than we are now.  I believe that both science and religion as well as philosophy are equally important for mankind.

Peace
Mark

To me it is the opposite. Sureity means one does not HAVE to be argumentative or dogmatic.  When one knows one knows.  An intelligent, logical person need not ever have any doubt. It does not make one perfect or mean one is always right, but using logic and intelligence, one can act to achieve optimum outcomes and potentials.

I am right about a lot of things (well almost everything actually). :innocent:  But  it is the prerogative of other humans to be wrong. As long as their wrongness doesnt hurt others, then that's ok. Atheists have got the world wrong, but that doesnt really hurt/limit anyone except themsleves. It is the nature of humanity to believe as they will

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#13    markdohle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:23 PM

 Nik Xues, on 23 September 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

if there is no doubt we will not check our answers.
doubt demands the answers be clear and solid.
seeking evidence is the means to satiate doubt

if there is no faith we will not look for answers.
faith tells us to keep looking, that "the truth is out there".
truth is the by product of heavy faith.

however most people forget this nasty lil bugger called EGO
my answer is correct i need not check it
if it is not "my" answer it is wrong

I like this very much, well said.  I shared his on my 'markdohle' blog here UM.

peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 23 September 2013 - 12:27 PM.


#14    markdohle

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:27 PM

 Mr Walker, on 23 September 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:


To me it is the opposite. Sureity means one does not HAVE to be argumentative or dogmatic.  When one knows one knows.  An intelligent, logical person need not ever have any doubt. It does not make one perfect or mean one is always right, but using logic and intelligence, one can act to achieve optimum outcomes and potentials.

I am right about a lot of things (well almost everything actually). :innocent:  But  it is the prerogative of other humans to be wrong. As long as their wrongness doesnt hurt others, then that's ok. Atheists have got the world wrong, but that doesnt really hurt/limit anyone except themsleves. It is the nature of humanity to believe as they will

Hmmmmm not the same thing.  You don't feel a threat when others disagree with you.  You always answer in a respectful manner when attacked even.....so this is another aspect that is not doubt.   Your experiences put you in another category all together I believe.

Peace
Mark


#15    Leonardo

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:51 PM

 markdohle, on 23 September 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

It is impossible to live without doubt, at least I don't know of anyone.  To deny doubt is to become rigid and fearful.  Many of my Christian friends, and those of other paths talk of doubt often.  Books are written about in the Christian world, it is taken for granted.
peace
mark

I agree, but it is not what I argued.

I argued that many religions seek to remove doubt - as the lesson of Abraham's sacrifice is an example of. If, as you suggest, the removal of doubt is to become "rigid and fearful", what does that say about what those religions seek to turn people into?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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if there is no doubt we will not check our answers.
doubt demands the answers be clear and solid.
seeking evidence is the means to satiate doubt

if there is no faith we will not look for answers.
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