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Doubt and faith


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#121    Philangeli

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 November 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

You are totally wrong on Jewish culture in two counts. In the case of a life being in danger whether of my family or that of anyone else that depends on me to save it, even the life of an animal, we have the concept of "Pichuach Nephesh" that allows us to work on the Sabbath or break any other commandment to save that life.

So, why did the Pharisees criticize Jesus for healing on the Sabbath?

Quote

Jews don't obey God's Law because they are afraid to be punished but because it is part of the Jewish second nature.

If they are obeying God's Laws, why are they still being punished after 2,000 years? It seems to me that robotically obeying laws doesn't bring much spiritual solace. Do you think obeying laws necessarily makes you a 'good' person?

You mentioned previously that you don't believe in hell and that obeying God's Laws gives you peace of mind. So, you just obey them to give you peace of mind? That is the most inane, egocentric, unspiritual view I think I have ever come across on any forum.

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#122    Paranoid Android

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 11:38 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 November 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yes, but it happens that Israel did not "die" for her sins but for the sins of Judah. Therefore, Israel was sacrificed not for her sins but for the sins of another. It means that Israel was innocent of the sins she died for. Israel was rejected and removed from the Land of Israel so that Judah was confirmed to remain over the whole Land. Read Psalm 78:67-69. That's when Messiah ben Joseph aka Israel died for the sins of Messiah ben David aka Judah.
I don't necessarily agree with your assertion (the reason the Northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed in 722 BC was because of their own sin in going against God), but presuming your comments here reflect your own beliefs, doesn't that contradict your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:30?

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#123    nothingman

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 11:21 PM

One of my favorite quotes due to its extreme profundity:

Life is doubt and faith without doubt is nothing but death ~ Miguel de Unamuno

Ecclesiastes 3:
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die...

(A time for faith and a time to die)

Faith and doubt: the ingredients for all seasons...


#124    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostGoSC, on 09 November 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

What a load of baloney. Jeremiah 31:30 & Ezekiel 18:20.

Baloney is to admit that an individual can die for the sins of another. You quote the right texts above and don't even understand why you have quoted them. I agree with Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You are the one whom I cannot agree with. I spoke about a people (Ephraim) being sacrificed for the sins of another (Judah) as ancient Israel  was rejected by God so that Judah be confirmed. My assertion is historically documented when Ephraim the Ten Tribes were removed by Assyria in 622 BCE for good from the Land of Israel and Judah stayed as the real proprietor over the whole Land of Israel for the next 131 years according to Josephus. (Psalm 78:67-69)


#125    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:06 AM

View Postjoc, on 09 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Fine.  You just made my point.  God had nothing to do with anything.  The Prophets gave the commandments...in the name of God...in the name of ...God...whom the Prophets also created after a dream or vision.

Thank you for validating!

All right 'joc', I am glad you got the point as it is all down in Numbers 12:6. I am saying nothing out of the top of my head.


#126    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostPhilangeli, on 09 November 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:


Quote

So, why did the Pharisees criticize Jesus for healing on the Sabbath?

Hateful BS by the Hellenist who wrote that gospel. On the contrary, the Pharisees themselves would work on the Sabbath to save a life. Instead of criticizing Jesus they rather went out of their way to save Jesus from the cross by asking him to stop his disciples acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem because that could end up with him on the cross. (Luke 19:37-40) Since Jesus' answer was that he could not, he was arrested and crucified by the Romans. Evidence that his own disciples caused Jesus to be crucified was his verdict nailed by Pilate on the top of Jesus' cross: INRI.

Quote

If they are obeying God's Laws, why are they still being punished after 2,000 years? It seems to me that robotically obeying laws doesn't bring much spiritual solace. Do you think obeying laws necessarily makes you a 'good' person?

I don't have to think; I am sure. Let us assume here a situation. A law-abiding Jew is driving his car alongside a grace-abiding Christian who claims Jesus has sacrificed himself for him to be above the law. Before an intercession the Jew stops for the signal to turn green while the Christian went right ahead and got photographed. After 3 days the christian gets a letter with a ticket to show up in Court to explain why he broke the law. No need to go over the troubles he went through, don't you think much worth was to obey the law?  

Quote

You mentioned previously that you don't believe in hell and that obeying God's Laws gives you peace of mind. So, you just obey them to give you peace of mind? That is the most inane, egocentric, unspiritual view I think I have ever come across on any forum.

Jesus was also a Jew and he didn't believe in hell either aside from the grave; and to have a peaceful state of mind for the reason to obey the Law, Jesus himself said that the kingdom of heaven is to be found within ourselves and not a place to go to. (Luke 17:21) Now compare my reason to obey the Law and yours for fear of hell or with an eye in the reward of heaven. Which one is the insane here? No offense meant but only dogs and slaves behave better with a treat as a reward.

Edited by Ben Masada, 14 November 2013 - 10:44 AM.


#127    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 09 November 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

I don't necessarily agree with your assertion (the reason the Northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed in 722 BC was because of their own sin in going against God), but presuming your comments here reflect your own beliefs, doesn't that contradict your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:30?

No, it does not. Jeremiah is speaking about an individual having to be sacrificed for the sins of another and not that of a people by another. (Ezek. 18;20) Throughout the History of Israel every year a prophetic scapegoat had to be chosen by lots from two goats and to be sent to "Azazel" which means to the desert eastward so that the other would remain in Jerusalem. There was a time during the kingdom of Ahaz king of Judah when Syria and Samaria were ganged up to make war against Judah and Ahaz by sheer fear rejected God's Covenant and made one with Assyria to protect Judah by making war against Syria and Samaria. Ahaz was so serious with his decision that even immolated his own son to the Assyrian god. Judah had become doomed but since the Lord had promised David that his Tribe would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever according to I Kings 11:36, the lots were thrown and when God's decision was to fall upon Judah, it fell upon Israel instead according to Isaiah 9:8. Israel had to go and Judah remained in Jerusalem. It was then that atonement of Judah was effected by Israel. That's why Israel had to be removed from the Land of Israel and sent eastward to Assyria as the Scapegoat into the desert to Azazel. That's when the Lord rejected Ephraim and confirmed Judah. (Psalm 78:67-69)


#128    Leonardo

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 09 November 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

You are totally wrong on Jewish culture in two counts. In the case of a life being in danger whether of my family or that of anyone else that depends on me to save it, even the life of an animal, we have the concept of "Pichuach Nephesh" that allows us to work on the Sabbath or break any other commandment to save that life. Jews don't obey God's Law because they are afraid to be punished but because it is part of the Jewish second nature.

Jesus did not save a life when he healed on the Sabbath, he cured a shrivelled hand. According to you he was not following "Pichuach Nephesh", but broke the Law of the Sabbath.

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#129    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:30 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 14 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Jesus did not save a life when he healed on the Sabbath, he cured a shrivelled hand. According to you he was not following "Pichuach Nephesh", but broke the Law of the Sabbath.

Balderdash! This is a lie of the Hellenist who wrote that gospel who was trying to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Otherwise you are simply telling us that Jesus was not a Jewish man. A Jewish man most definitely would have told that man to come "tomorrow" to him. Most definitely he would if he really wanted to get his shriveled hand fixed. There was no danger of life which means that the whole thing was a lie.


#130    SCFan

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 November 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Baloney is to admit that an individual can die for the sins of another. You quote the right texts above and don't even understand why you have quoted them. I agree with Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You are the one whom I cannot agree with. I spoke about a people (Ephraim) being sacrificed for the sins of another (Judah) as ancient Israel  was rejected by God so that Judah be confirmed. My assertion is historically documented when Ephraim the Ten Tribes were removed by Assyria in 622 BCE for good from the Land of Israel and Judah stayed as the real proprietor over the whole Land of Israel for the next 131 years according to Josephus. (Psalm 78:67-69)

No, Israel had sinned greatly before the Lord and Judah was well on its way there too. Basically Israel fell into decline quicker than Judah.

And what about Isaiah 1:1-17?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#131    Ben Masada

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostGoSC, on 14 November 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

No, Israel had sinned greatly before the Lord and Judah was well on its way there too. Basically Israel fell into decline quicker than Judah.

And what about Isaiah 1:1-17?

First of all, sorry for my mistake above when I typed 622 BCE for the taken over of Israel by Assyria. The year was 722 BCE.

Yes, Israel had her sins too but she "died" for the sins of another and not hers. Of her own sins she could be worse that Judah but of the sins of Judah she was a lamb.


#132    Paranoid Android

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 November 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:



No, it does not. Jeremiah is speaking about an individual having to be sacrificed for the sins of another and not that of a people by another. (Ezek. 18;20) Throughout the History of Israel every year a prophetic scapegoat had to be chosen by lots from two goats and to be sent to "Azazel" which means to the desert eastward so that the other would remain in Jerusalem. There was a time during the kingdom of Ahaz king of Judah when Syria and Samaria were ganged up to make war against Judah and Ahaz by sheer fear rejected God's Covenant and made one with Assyria to protect Judah by making war against Syria and Samaria. Ahaz was so serious with his decision that even immolated his own son to the Assyrian god. Judah had become doomed but since the Lord had promised David that his Tribe would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever according to I Kings 11:36, the lots were thrown and when God's decision was to fall upon Judah, it fell upon Israel instead according to Isaiah 9:8. Israel had to go and Judah remained in Jerusalem. It was then that atonement of Judah was effected by Israel. That's why Israel had to be removed from the Land of Israel and sent eastward to Assyria as the Scapegoat into the desert to Azazel. That's when the Lord rejected Ephraim and confirmed Judah. (Psalm 78:67-69)
So God approves of genocide in order that one race/nation can die for another, but not an individual dying for a race/nation?

I don't necessarily agree with that assertion either, I'll have to look into it later to give you my own opinion. Right now, my comments are based solely on your own input to this. And to be frank, it sounds a bit skirty to say that one person cannot die for another person, but a whole race can die for another race. The Bible seems "mum" on the matter as to whether a person can die for an entire race, or whether an entire race can die for a single individual. All are equally viable reference points, but I doubt you're going to accept them all.

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#133    SCFan

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 November 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

First of all, sorry for my mistake above when I typed 622 BCE for the taken over of Israel by Assyria. The year was 722 BCE.

Yes, Israel had her sins too but she "died" for the sins of another and not hers. Of her own sins she could be worse that Judah but of the sins of Judah she was a lamb.

Please cite your scripture, please, in the areas I bolded?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#134    joc

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 November 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:


Quote

Posted Imagejoc, on 09 November 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Fine.  You just made my point.  God had nothing to do with anything.  The Prophets gave the commandments...in the name of God...in the name of ...God...whom the Prophets also created after a dream or vision.


Thank you for validating!
All right 'joc', I am glad you got the point as it is all down in Numbers 12:6. I am saying nothing out of the top of my head.
The Point therefore is that the Bible is all made up by the Prophets...everyone had a God except Israel...so they created one...
a  God that was alive...like people...that had emotions like people, and who, through the Prophets tells Israel what to do...it is all about control by and for the Prophets.

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#135    Leonardo

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 14 November 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Balderdash! This is a lie of the Hellenist who wrote that gospel who was trying to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Otherwise you are simply telling us that Jesus was not a Jewish man. A Jewish man most definitely would have told that man to come "tomorrow" to him. Most definitely he would if he really wanted to get his shriveled hand fixed. There was no danger of life which means that the whole thing was a lie.

I see. So you can post the original passage from the Hebrew then?

I mean, I presume there is a Hebrew, or Aramaic, original which confirms Jesus healed on the sabbath to save a life, and not merely to cure a shrivelled hand - correct?

Because you have been arguing that Jesus was a good Jewish man, and performed healing on the Sabbath to save a life, not cure a shrivelled hand - because the former would be acceptable for a 'good Jewish man'. So you have evidence for your argument - right?

Edited by Leonardo, 14 November 2013 - 06:35 PM.

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if there is no doubt we will not check our answers.
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