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Naming the Dead Project


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#1    Kowalski

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 05:27 PM

Quote


US drone strikes that the CIA claims target only al-Qaeda militants have killed at least 400 civilians in Pakistan over the past decade. That’s according to “Naming the Dead,” a new project that aims to identify and collect data on those killed by drones.

The number of those killed in the tribal regions of northwest Pakistan by the US drones over the last nine years has been estimated at more than 2,500 people.  In most cases, there is little or no information available on the victims of the attacks.

Naming the Dead is an initiative of the London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ). The two-year-old project is aimed at tracking drone victims and “to increase the transparency around this conflict and inform the public debate.”


Link: http://rt.com/news/n...tan-drones-284/


I think this is a wonderful idea.


#2    and then

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:48 AM

Civilians die in war.  It is a sad reality.  Civilians died on September 11 of 2001 also.  Had that not happened I firmly believe that those folks in the tribal areas of Pakistan would be living their lives as usual.  America is no more evil than any other human government.  We just have a target on us because we decided to stand up after being attacked - somehow the rest of the world foolishly thinks we should sit down and shut up and just accept what the Islamic fascists want to do to us.  They mixed us a cup of pain - we're just sharing it back with them.

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#3    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:59 AM

View Postand then, on 30 September 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Civilians die in war.  It is a sad reality.  Civilians died on September 11 of 2001 also.  Had that not happened I firmly believe that those folks in the tribal areas of Pakistan would be living their lives as usual.  America is no more evil than any other human government.  We just have a target on us because we decided to stand up after being attacked - somehow the rest of the world foolishly thinks we should sit down and shut up and just accept what the Islamic fascists want to do to us.  They mixed us a cup of pain - we're just sharing it back with them.

Because innocents died, that is an excuse to kill innocents?

Listen to someone whos job it was to kill innocents and then tell me that this is a good idea.



I can't find the full interview, but this drone operator was responsible 1,626 deaths. By hell does he regret it.

Surely there are non military meathods for accomplishing a desired outcome (I.e how every other country in the world operates). And it is obvious, to me at least, that killing innocents in other countries where radical islamists exist would result in more terrorists, not less.

Edited by Professor Buzzkill, 30 September 2013 - 06:00 AM.


#4    Yamato

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:27 AM

View Postand then, on 30 September 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

We just have a target on us because we decided to stand up after being attacked - somehow the rest of the world foolishly thinks we should sit down and shut up and just accept what the Islamic fascists want to do to us.  They mixed us a cup of pain - we're just sharing it back with them.
The targeting preceded being attacked.   And we were targeted because of our support for Israel.   "They hate us for our freedom" was successfully sold to the American people instead, so the foreign policy won't be questioned and the US can continue to force the entire population to live under the threat of future terrorist attack.  For Israel.   Excuse my french, but F that S.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
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#5    and then

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostYamato, on 30 September 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

The targeting preceded being attacked.   And we were targeted because of our support for Israel.   "They hate us for our freedom" was successfully sold to the American people instead, so the foreign policy won't be questioned and the US can continue to force the entire population to live under the threat of future terrorist attack.  For Israel.   Excuse my french, but F that S.
I don't accept that those 3000 people deserved to die because of our government's action Yam.  America is targeted primarily because we have the audacity to stand by and protect Jews.  You know it and so does most of the rest of the country.  The chaos in the world today is very complex but it really all gets back to the hatred that boils from a single religion.  I'm not impressed by the second thoughts of some publicity seeking ex-service member who suddenly realized he wasn't playing a cool video game.  He may well have PTSD now after realizing that he has been responsible for so much death but he is GUILTY of no crime.  I get angry when people mewl and moan about the loss of life in a war as though somehow there was an option.  All the political rhetoric means nothing to me, frankly.  As an American if I am going to be subjected to the risks associated with lethal hatred for the acts of my democratic government then my enemy is going to share that risk also.  In today's world there really are no innocents except the children.  And our enemies display THEM like bloody trophies when they are killed - though not targeted.

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#6    jeem

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

View Postand then, on 30 September 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Civilians die in war.  It is a sad reality.  Civilians died on September 11 of 2001 also.  Had that not happened I firmly believe that those folks in the tribal areas of Pakistan would be living their lives as usual.  America is no more evil than any other human government.  We just have a target on us because we decided to stand up after being attacked - somehow the rest of the world foolishly thinks we should sit down and shut up and just accept what the Islamic fascists want to do to us.  They mixed us a cup of pain - we're just sharing it back with them.
Perhaps you have forgotten this ISLAMIC FACIST was created by you(American) and still you are helping them in some places(helping the Jihadist of Syria)
and the AMERICAN FACIST are killing innocent people for a mistake they have made before.


#7    jeem

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

View Postand then, on 30 September 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I don't accept that those 3000 people deserved to die because of our government's action Yam.  America is targeted primarily because we have the audacity to stand by and protect Jews.  You know it and so does most of the rest of the country.  The chaos in the world today is very complex but it really all gets back to the hatred that boils from a single religion.  I'm not impressed by the second thoughts of some publicity seeking ex-service member who suddenly realized he wasn't playing a cool video game.  He may well have PTSD now after realizing that he has been responsible for so much death but he is GUILTY of no crime.  I get angry when people mewl and moan about the loss of life in a war as though somehow there was an option.  All the political rhetoric means nothing to me, frankly.  As an American if I am going to be subjected to the risks associated with lethal hatred for the acts of my democratic government then my enemy is going to share that risk also.  In today's world there really are no innocents except the children.  And our enemies display THEM like bloody trophies when they are killed - though not targeted.
Protecting Jews by killing Muslims how can you support that?


#8    and then

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

View Postjeem, on 06 October 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Protecting Jews by killing Muslims how can you support that?
With a quite clear conscience.  I haven't heard of any group other than Islamists murdering in large numbers indiscriminately.  Those are facts - not biases or hatred.

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#9    jeem

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:39 PM

View Postand then, on 06 October 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

With a quite clear conscience.  I haven't heard of any group other than Islamists murdering in large numbers indiscriminately.  Those are facts - not biases or hatred.
The Arab don't say this. There are many European Human rights organization which reports Israeli army killing innocent Palestinian
It's a fact not biases or hatred. you should watch those videos released by wikileaks where you can see American solider killing innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan and rejoicing and encouraging saying NICE SHOTS! .You tend to call this humanity

Edited by jeem, 06 October 2013 - 05:40 PM.


#10    Skep B

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:41 PM

It is humanity, because humans do it.
The world is an indecent place, if a society wishes to live decently, they have to have people willing to go places that those within the society would not approve of.

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#11    and then

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:53 PM

View Postjeem, on 06 October 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

The Arab don't say this. There are many European Human rights organization which reports Israeli army killing innocent Palestinian
It's a fact not biases or hatred. you should watch those videos released by wikileaks where you can see American solider killing innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan and rejoicing and encouraging saying NICE SHOTS! .You tend to call this humanity
More propaganda.  No one ever mentions that those Apache pilots/gunners were actively looking for some militants who had just ambushed a patrol a few blocks from where that event occurred.  It's called URBAN warfare.  Mistakes happen and innocent people die in war.  And in today's 24 hour news cycle - complete with electronic media - it's easy to propagandize every bloody moment to one's advantage.  America is at war with a hateful religion, with the suppressed envy of most of the rest of the world AND with itself.  In spite of ALL of that I daresay the numbers of people clamoring to come here as citizens as not abated much because freedom is the natural desire of a human being.  Not slavish subservience to a god who requires murder to appease him.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#12    Almagest

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:16 AM

One thing rarely mentioned is the efforts made since WW2 by the American Military to limit civilian casualties. American soldiers massacred Japanese and SS prisoners - but they could expect similar treatment if they themselves were captured. The Allied strategy in the air was focussed on bombing the civilian populations of the Axis powers into oblivion. The allied bombing campaign of Japan was particularly brutal, especially when it came to incendiary bombs. Compare 97000 dead in one night of fire-bombing in Tokyo, an attack aimed directly at civilians, to 2500 dead from collateral and you can see the difference in the the USA's approach. Add to that the fact that Jihadists will hide behind the civilian population, the death of innocents is inevitable. It's asymetrical warfare and because they can't match the US military head to head, they have to take different approaches. And that applies to the US too, an invasion to remove these elements would turn into a quagmire like Iraq did and would result in way more civilian deaths from fighting and disruption of services such as health, food and clean water.

I'm not justifying the drone program, simply putting it into context. I have problems with drone strikes but I don't really have an alternative. The problem here is that the US is killing Pakistani civilians when they're supposed to be allies. Can you think of anything that would drive a young man to jihad quicker than seeing their family killed by a hellfire missile out of the sky?

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#13    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:22 AM

The Americans are trying to kill the Hydra.


#14    Gromdor

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:00 AM

Accurate analogy.  But what happens to the world if we stop cutting off heads and started burning the stumps?


#15    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:02 AM

View PostGromdor, on 07 October 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Accurate analogy.  But what happens to the world if we stop cutting off heads and started burning the stumps?
That would require nuclear weapons and the death of a lot of innocent people.  I don't see it.





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