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Is the universe inside a black hole?


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#1    spacecowboy342

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:50 PM

I was watching an old you tube video by Lawrence Krauss and at the end there was a question and answer section where the question was posed about whether if the universe had come about due to quantum fluctuation if it would ever be possible to witness such an event happen again.Dr. Krauss responded that it might be possible to create such an event in the Hadron supercollider but in such a case though from inside the tiny pocket universe it would appear to be expanding from our side it would appear to be collapsing into a black hole. He didn't go into the reasons for this, but I am wondering if this is true if from outside our universe the same would be true and we would appear to be collapsing into a black hole, and if the acceleration of this collapse could in some way explain the acceleration of expansion of our universe?



#2    sepulchrave

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 05 October 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

He didn't go into the reasons for this, but I am wondering if this is true if from outside our universe the same would be true and we would appear to be collapsing into a black hole, and if the acceleration of this collapse could in some way explain the acceleration of expansion of our universe?


I don't think so. I think if we were inside a black hole we would see a preferred direction towards a point (namely, the direction towards the centre of the black hole) in the Hubble flow, rather than the observer preferred direction of away from us (which presumably means away from every point, since there is no reason why our position is ``speciall'') indicative of an expanding Universe.


#3    Pyridium

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:27 PM

This is a great exercise in human fantasy.  Once you accept the theory of blackholes as true, you can then also accept that our universe began from a singularity.  Literally, the entire mass in our universe came from nothing.  If you believe that then worm holes and multiple dimensions are also possible.

I do not believe that a singularity can ever exist.  It comes from the human brain as an answer to a flawed math equation.  It is a fantasy idea that will never be proven, but must be real for science fiction to kick in.


#4    spacecowboy342

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:05 PM

View Postsepulchrave, on 07 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

[/size]

I don't think so. I think if we were inside a black hole we would see a preferred direction towards a point (namely, the direction towards the centre of the black hole) in the Hubble flow, rather than the observer preferred direction of away from us (which presumably means away from every point, since there is no reason why our position is ``speciall'') indicative of an expanding Universe.
Yeah I guess I'm not getting what he meant when he said inside the pocket universe it would appear to be expanding while from the outside it would appear to be collapsing into a black hole


#5    spacecowboy342

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostPyridium, on 07 October 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

This is a great exercise in human fantasy.  Once you accept the theory of blackholes as true, you can then also accept that our universe began from a singularity.  Literally, the entire mass in our universe came from nothing.  If you believe that then worm holes and multiple dimensions are also possible.

I do not believe that a singularity can ever exist.  It comes from the human brain as an answer to a flawed math equation.  It is a fantasy idea that will never be proven, but must be real for science fiction to kick in.
I have heard others voice similar opinions and at least one physicist say that singularity just means we don't really know what is going on inside a black hole. It is hard for me to conceive of a mass collapsing to 0 volume and my mind tries to explain this by imagining space kind of turning inside out, so to speak resulting in explosive expansion, but I don't have a clue if this is in any way valid

Edited by spacecowboy342, 07 October 2013 - 10:10 PM.


#6    Leonardo

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:15 AM

View Postsepulchrave, on 07 October 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

[/size]

I don't think so. I think if we were inside a black hole we would see a preferred direction towards a point (namely, the direction towards the centre of the black hole) in the Hubble flow, rather than the observer preferred direction of away from us (which presumably means away from every point, since there is no reason why our position is ``speciall'') indicative of an expanding Universe.

Would this not entirely depend on the curvature of space within the speculated black hole, sepulchrave?

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#7    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

My understanding is that if one were to create a new Big Bang with an inflationary episode and all that in a collider or some other way, that we wouldn't even notice -- it would all happen in a new and different set of dimensions.

We all have trouble with the notion of a singularity, but because we cannot understand how something is possible don't mean it ain't.  Nature does what it does without checking whether we will be able to understand it or not.

Still, it may well be that things happen at or near plank space to prevent things from going further -- especially if space/time is quantized at around that level.


#8    sepulchrave

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 08 October 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Would this not entirely depend on the curvature of space within the speculated black hole, sepulchrave?

It would definitely depend on the curvature, but I think that as long as space is topologically simple (without loops or knots, etc.) we should be able to see distant galaxies moving towards some region of space.

I don't think there is a way of smoothly curving space so that the singularity would appear to be at some point in the far distance regardless of which direction we look, unless space is spherical and we are in the ``privileged'' position of being directly opposite the singularity (as in, the singularity is the ``north pole'' and we are on the ``south pole'').


#9    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

View Postsepulchrave, on 08 October 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

It would definitely depend on the curvature, but I think that as long as space is topologically simple (without loops or knots, etc.) we should be able to see distant galaxies moving towards some region of space.

I don't think there is a way of smoothly curving space so that the singularity would appear to be at some point in the far distance regardless of which direction we look, unless space is spherical and we are in the ``privileged'' position of being directly opposite the singularity (as in, the singularity is the ``north pole'' and we are on the ``south pole'').

But this also depends on observing from a static frame of reference, but in a "black hole universe" (say, something shaped like a trumpet) this would not be the case. We would be accelerating towards the singularity at a rate different to other objects at varying distances from that singularity. This could give the impression of those objects moving away from us in all directions, especially if rotation around/across the 'surface' of the trumpet-shaped universe was involved.

Edited by Leonardo, 09 October 2013 - 12:56 PM.

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#10    sepulchrave

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:19 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 09 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

But this also depends on observing from a static frame of reference, but in a "black hole universe" (say, something shaped like a trumpet) this would not be the case. We would be accelerating towards the singularity at a rate different to other objects at varying distances from that singularity. This could give the impression of those objects moving away from us in all directions, especially if rotation around/across the 'surface' of the trumpet-shaped universe was involved.

In that situation, I don't see why we wouldn't be able to tell which direction was ``into'' the trumpet and which direction was ``out of'' the trumpet.


#11    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

View Postsepulchrave, on 09 October 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

In that situation, I don't see why we wouldn't be able to tell which direction was ``into'' the trumpet and which direction was ``out of'' the trumpet.

How would we be able to tell the difference?

From our perspective (a false perspective, but the only one we could measure from) we would appear to have a stationary frame of reference and all other objects would appear to be moving away from us. There would be no observable 'universal direction of motion' and so we would observe exactly what we currently observe.

Edited by Leonardo, 09 October 2013 - 02:32 PM.

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#12    StarMountainKid

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:06 PM

A problem I see is, black holes rotate. If our universe were inside a black hole, wouldn't our universe be rotating, too? Then we'd be living in a universe similar to a Godel rotating universe, which would contain closed timelike curves. For instance, looking at right angles to the rotation, we would see ourselves in our past. We would also be confused as to whether an event happened before or after an other event.

I also think we would see a preferred direction to in the universe, the direction of rotation. I'm not an expert on this, I'm just saying.

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#13    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:08 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 09 October 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

A problem I see is, black holes rotate. If our universe were inside a black hole, wouldn't our universe be rotating, too? Then we'd be living in a universe similar to a Godel rotating universe, which would contain closed timelike curves. For instance, looking at right angles to the rotation, we would see ourselves in our past. We would also be confused as to whether an event happened before or after an other event.

I also think we would see a preferred direction to in the universe, the direction of rotation. I'm not an expert on this, I'm just saying.

How does one "look at right angles to the rotation", when light's motion is with the rotation - not perpendicular to it?

And my understanding (admittedly very incomplete) of Godel's solution is the topography it would represent would be more akin to a 'spinning top' than a 'rotating trumpet' - as it does not involve a singularity.

Edited by Leonardo, 09 October 2013 - 04:16 PM.

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#14    StarMountainKid

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

Leonardo said:

How does one "look at right angles to the rotation", when light's motion is with the rotation - not perpendicular to it?

I think it's because light emitted counter-rotationally is looped around by the rotation of the space it is traveling in and returns to its source.

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According to Hawking and Ellis, another remarkable feature of this spacetime is the fact that, if we suppress the inessential y coordinate, light emitted from an event on the world line of a given dust particle spirals outwards, forms a circular cusp, then spirals inward and reconverges at a subsequent event on the world line of the original dust particle. This means that observers looking orthogonally (at right angels) to the Posted Image direction can see only finitely far out, and also see themselves at an earlier time.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Gödel_metric

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#15    Leonardo

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 05:00 PM

I read that, but have a problem with this...

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According to Hawking and Ellis, another remarkable feature of this spacetime is the fact that, if we suppress the inessential y coordinate, light emitted from an event on the world line of a given dust particle spirals outwards, forms a circular cusp, then spirals inward and reconverges at a subsequent event on the world line of the original dust particle.

If this behaviour is only observed through suppressing the y coordinate, then surely that suggests the y coordinate is not "inessential", but is essential to suppress this behaviour?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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