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CNN Joins Tea Party: Delay ACA for 1 Year !

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#61    Agent0range

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:21 AM

Over 300 million people do not have a problem paying for insurance.  They also don't have a problem paying $1000 a year to cover the freeloading uninsured.


#62    joc

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostAgent0range, on 24 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Over 300 million people do not have a problem paying for insurance.  They also don't have a problem paying $1000 a year to cover the freeloading uninsured.
Most of us have a problem with the mindless rhetoric and outlandish lies such as this.  Your sarcasm speaks volumes.

Edited by joc, 24 October 2013 - 11:57 AM.

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#63    Harte

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

View Postjoc, on 24 October 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

Using the simple Algebraic equation:  If A = B and B = C, then A = C.....you are against ObamaCare...correct?

Pardon me but, as a math teacher, I simply cannot let this stand.

What you have written above is three equations.  They express the transitive property of equality.

IOW, you're not using a simple algebraic equation here.  You are stating a property of the symbol "=."

This symbol only applies in mathematical relationships.  It is not universal.
The transitive property itself applies to a great many things outside of math, yes.  But it is not universal either.

That said, I get where you were coming from.

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#64    joc

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostHarte, on 24 October 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Pardon me but, as a math teacher, I simply cannot let this stand.

What you have written above is three equations.  They express the transitive property of equality.

IOW, you're not using a simple algebraic equation here.  You are stating a property of the symbol "=."

This symbol only applies in mathematical relationships.  It is not universal.
The transitive property itself applies to a great many things outside of math, yes.  But it is not universal either.

That said, I get where you were coming from.

Harte
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#65    Harte

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 01:34 PM

There are now, but they're not native.

Speaking of living things, the transitive property exceptions apply to a great many of them.

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#66    joc

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM

View PostHarte, on 24 October 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Pardon me but, as a math teacher, I simply cannot let this stand.

What you have written above is three equations.  They express the transitive property of equality.

IOW, you're not using a simple algebraic equation here.  You are stating a property of the symbol "=."

This symbol only applies in mathematical relationships.  It is not universal.
The transitive property itself applies to a great many things outside of math, yes.  But it is not universal either.

That said, I get where you were coming from.

Harte
If A equals a Tuna Sandwich   and B equals a Tuna Sand then A and B are both Tuna Sandwiches.  If C is also a Tuna Sandwich then we have 3 Tuna Sandwiches...are you getting hungry yet?
So, If Tiggs is for Less Coersion in Government...and Obamacare is using Coercion, then Tiggs must be against ObamaCare...and he pretty much said he was...
but...he also said that he thinks that I should pay for my neighbors food, clothing and shelter.
When in fact...I am only responsible for paying for the food, clothing and shelter of my daughter.  Not yours, not your cousins, not your friends, neighbors pregnant 14 year old...not my wife, not my mother, not my brother, not your dog, not your cat, not your dogs, cousins, boyfriend in Tennessee...I am only, ONLY obligated by law...to pay for the food, shelter and clothing of my daughter.  That's it.
I do however, from time to time, give money and food to Homeless people...even though I have no obligation to do so.  I do it because I care...and I care about your dogs, cousins, second mistress too...but I'm not going to give her a freaking dime unless I decide that I want to.  And if you force me to...I will rebel.

Get it?

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#67    Yamato

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

but I'm not going to give her a freaking dime unless I decide that I want to.  And if you force me to...I will rebel.

Get it?
Loved the tuna sandwich bit. ;)

But what will this rebellion look like?   Will you lock and load against the authorities?   Move the family out of the house and into the wilderness before you bravely fortify your home like it was the next Ruby Ridge?  Will you grab your big barter bag of silver coins and make a run for the boat you've been renting?

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#68    Tiggs

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

View Postjoc, on 24 October 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

A 'left' Libertariiana?  I have never heard the term before, but okay.
Not entirely surprising. In US Political party terms, the closest match would be the Green Party - who about 7 people voted for in the last Presidential election.


Quote

  The biggest problem I see with all of this is that no one seems interested in addressing the 'real' problem.   The problem isn't health care...it is the ability to PAY for health care.  There is a reason that health care is so expensive in the United States and this is where the discussion needs to generate viable solutions.  Generally, the problem is government interference in the market place.  There isn't much competition allowed.  And they just added insult to injury with the new taxes on medical devices.
Interesting. Do you think that Government interference is the reason that Aspirins are being charged at $18 each by Hospitals?


View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

If A equals a Tuna Sandwich   and B equals a Tuna Sand then A and B are both Tuna Sandwiches.  If C is also a Tuna Sandwich then we have 3 Tuna Sandwiches...are you getting hungry yet?
So, If Tiggs is for Less Coersion in Government...and Obamacare is using Coercion, then Tiggs must be against ObamaCare...and he pretty much said he was...
but...he also said that he thinks that I should pay for my neighbors food, clothing and shelter.
Not you, personally. Heck - apparently you can't even afford catastrophic healthcare coverage, even with massive government subsidies.

I believe that society as a whole has a basic duty of care to it's members, so that they can at least survive in basic poverty conditions. Society, not the individuals within it.


Quote

When in fact...I am only responsible for paying for the food, clothing and shelter of my daughter.  Not yours, not your cousins, not your friends, neighbors pregnant 14 year old...not my wife, not my mother, not my brother, not your dog, not your cat, not your dogs, cousins, boyfriend in Tennessee...I am only, ONLY obligated by law...to pay for the food, shelter and clothing of my daughter.  That's it.
I do however, from time to time, give money and food to Homeless people...even though I have no obligation to do so.  I do it because I care...and I care about your dogs, cousins, second mistress too...but I'm not going to give her a freaking dime unless I decide that I want to.  And if you force me to...I will rebel.

Get it?
I"m a bit short on dogs and mistresses.

You either believe in Roosevelt's four freedoms or you don't.

I do. You don't. Which is why we'll rarely politically agree.

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#69    joc

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostTiggs, on 25 October 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Not entirely surprising. In US Political party terms, the closest match would be the Green Party - who about 7 people voted for in the last Presidential election.



Interesting. Do you think that Government interference is the reason that Aspirins are being charged at $18 each by Hospitals?



Not you, personally. Heck - apparently you can't even afford catastrophic healthcare coverage, even with massive government subsidies.

I believe that society as a whole has a basic duty of care to it's members, so that they can at least survive in basic poverty conditions. Society, not the individuals within it.



I"m a bit short on dogs and mistresses.

You either believe in Roosevelt's four freedoms or you don't.

I do. You don't. Which is why we'll rarely politically agree.
Freedom's of...yes.
Freedom's FROM...it depends on what the definition of From is.
Freedom from want...It also depends upon what the definition of Want is.  My definition is:  Hunger.
We aren't really far apart on our concerns for Humanity Tigg's.  We just have different avenue's for achieving them.  For all the Trillions the US government has thrown at Poverty...it hasn't changed...there are just as many in Poverty now as ever...but again...it depends on what your definition of Poverty is.   The Soviet Union had an idea that everyone should live in a house and not in the streets...so...everyone did, as deplorable as the conditions were...at least they had a house, AND a job.  They had Freedom from Want right?  If the definition of Want is Hunger...at least they had a line they could stand in for hours to buy a loaf of bread.
The question is...what is the Price of Freedom of Want for the populace as a whole or as you call it...Society.  Socialism is just that...Society takes care of those who can't, or won't, and eventually...always...the Can'ts and Won'ts and all of the other N'ts drag down the Society as a whole.  There will always be poverty Tiggs.  The best way in my opinion to overcome it for most is to create an economy where there are plenty of jobs with high paying salaries.  This always leads to economic freedom...THAT's it Tiggs...Economic Freedom.  

It isn't that I don't care or that other's like me don't care.  We care tremendously...but I know that when I give some cash to a guy or gal on the street...that isn't going to help them in the long run.  Instead of paying illegal immigrants for being here...instead of paying girls to have babies...instead of paying the way for millions of Americans that could and would if they had the chance, pay their own way...what if instead...we spent trillions of dollars educating people on the Dire Impact of the N'T?  If we could just teach people how to think...and how not to think....wow...wouldn't that be something?  Instead, we have an NEA that wants to limit education to reading, writing and arithmetic...and teach people WHAT to think...that isn't freedom...that is control, disguised as education.

Edited by joc, 25 October 2013 - 11:39 AM.

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#70    CyberKen

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:25 PM

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Freedom's of...yes.
Freedom's FROM...it depends on what the definition of From is.
Freedom from want...It also depends upon what the definition of Want is.  My definition is:  Hunger.
We aren't really far apart on our concerns for Humanity Tigg's.  We just have different avenue's for achieving them.  For all the Trillions the US government has thrown at Poverty...it hasn't changed...there are just as many in Poverty now as ever...but again...it depends on what your definition of Poverty is.   The Soviet Union had an idea that everyone should live in a house and not in the streets...so...everyone did, as deplorable as the conditions were...at least they had a house, AND a job.  They had Freedom from Want right?  If the definition of Want is Hunger...at least they had a line they could stand in for hours to buy a loaf of bread.
The question is...what is the Price of Freedom of Want for the populace as a whole or as you call it...Society.  Socialism is just that...Society takes care of those who can't, or won't, and eventually...always...the Can'ts and Won'ts and all of the other N'ts drag down the Society as a whole.  There will always be poverty Tiggs.  The best way in my opinion to overcome it for most is to create an economy where there are plenty of jobs with high paying salaries.  This always leads to economic freedom...THAT's it Tiggs...Economic Freedom.  

It isn't that I don't care or that other's like me don't care.  We care tremendously...but I know that when I give some cash to a guy or gal on the street...that isn't going to help them in the long run.  Instead of paying illegal immigrants for being here...instead of paying girls to have babies...instead of paying the way for millions of Americans that could and would if they had the chance, pay their own way...what if instead...we spent trillions of dollars educating people on the Dire Impact of the N'T?  If we could just teach people how to think...and how not to think....wow...wouldn't that be something?  Instead, we have an NEA that wants to limit education to reading, writing and arithmetic...and teach people WHAT to think...that isn't freedom...that is control, disguised as education.

Teaching People How To Think = Indoctrination


#71    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostCyberKen, on 25 October 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

Teaching People How To Think = Indoctrination
Absolutely not.  Indoctrination is trying to keep people from thinking.


#72    Harte

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

If A equals a Tuna Sandwich   and B equals a Tuna Sand then A and B are both Tuna Sandwiches.  If C is also a Tuna Sandwich then we have 3 Tuna Sandwiches...are you getting hungry yet?
Starved, actually.

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

So, If Tiggs is for Less Coersion in Government...and Obamacare is using Coercion, then Tiggs must be against ObamaCare...and he pretty much said he was...
This does not follow from the transitive property. Though it makes sense, sure.

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

but...he also said that he thinks that I should pay for my neighbors food, clothing and shelter.
When in fact...I am only responsible for paying for the food, clothing and shelter of my daughter.  Not yours, not your cousins, not your friends, neighbors pregnant 14 year old...not my wife, not my mother, not my brother, not your dog, not your cat, not your dogs, cousins, boyfriend in Tennessee...I am only, ONLY obligated by law...to pay for the food, shelter and clothing of my daughter.  That's it.
I do however, from time to time, give money and food to Homeless people...even though I have no obligation to do so.  I do it because I care...and I care about your dogs, cousins, second mistress too...but I'm not going to give her a freaking dime unless I decide that I want to.  And if you force me to...I will rebel.

Get it?
Yes, I already said I did in a previous post. My beef was with the misuse of mathematical terms, not with the political stance.

Harte

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#73    CyberKen

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 October 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Absolutely not.  Indoctrination is trying to keep people from thinking.

The indoctrination process has been moving into our schools.  Textbooks have been altered to further the Secular Progressive Agenda.

History has been changed to include a liberal spin.

Liberal Professors openly smear conservatives and attack any student who dares to defend the conservatives.


#74    Tiggs

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 10:22 PM

View Postjoc, on 25 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Freedom's of...yes.
Freedom's FROM...it depends on what the definition of From is.
Freedom from want...It also depends upon what the definition of Want is.  My definition is:  Hunger.
We aren't really far apart on our concerns for Humanity Tigg's.  We just have different avenue's for achieving them.  For all the Trillions the US government has thrown at Poverty...it hasn't changed...there are just as many in Poverty now as ever...but again...it depends on what your definition of Poverty is.   The Soviet Union had an idea that everyone should live in a house and not in the streets...so...everyone did, as deplorable as the conditions were...at least they had a house, AND a job.  They had Freedom from Want right?  If the definition of Want is Hunger...at least they had a line they could stand in for hours to buy a loaf of bread.
I'm not advocating Communism.

I'm not advocating that we take all of our money, pool it and share it equally.

I'm advocating that we draw a baseline in the sand.

I'm advocating that we, as a society, should stop people from falling below that line and into crippling levels of poverty.


Quote

The question is...what is the Price of Freedom of Want for the populace as a whole or as you call it...Society.
Depends how wealthy and healthy that Society is. In the US, it's around 15% of it's income.


Quote

  Socialism is just that...Society takes care of those who can't, or won't, and eventually...always...the Can'ts and Won'ts and all of the other N'ts drag down the Society as a whole.  There will always be poverty Tiggs.  The best way in my opinion to overcome it for most is to create an economy where there are plenty of jobs with high paying salaries.  This always leads to economic freedom...THAT's it Tiggs...Economic Freedom.  
A Capitalist society is basically pyramid shaped because corporations are basically pyramid shaped.

In short - the general ratio of Workers to Managers to Middle Managers to Upper Managers to Board Members to CEO is many-to-one. A Pyramid shaped organisational hierarchy.

Unless you can fundamentally change that shape - or unless you can ensure that everyone at the base of the pyramid is highly paid - then there will never be plenty of jobs with high-paying salaries.

Because corporation's just don't work that way.

25% of all jobs within the US pay less than the poverty level for a family of four.
More than 50% of all jobs within the US pay < 200% of the poverty level for a family of four.


Quote

It isn't that I don't care or that other's like me don't care. We care tremendously...but I know that when I give some cash to a guy or gal on the street...that isn't going to help them in the long run.
And that's the crux of our disagreement.

You say that it's better to teach someone to fish than giving them a fish.

I say that it's better to make sure that everyone gets at least one fish when someone has just payed twenty people twelve fish between them to dredge the entire lake for him.

The inequality in this country is breathtaking.




Quote

Instead of paying illegal immigrants for being here...instead of paying girls to have babies...instead of paying the way for millions of Americans that could and would if they had the chance, pay their own way...what if instead...we spent trillions of dollars educating people on the Dire Impact of the N'T?
What would you teach them, exactly? Don't get a job paying < 200% of poverty, don't be young, don't grow old, don't be disabled, don't get sick, don't get injured in war?

The Cant's massively outnumber the Wont's. And then some.

Edited by Tiggs, 25 October 2013 - 10:26 PM.

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#75    joc

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostTiggs, on 25 October 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

I'm not advocating Communism.

I'm not advocating that we take all of our money, pool it and share it equally.

I'm advocating that we draw a baseline in the sand.

I'm advocating that we, as a society, should stop people from falling below that line and into crippling levels of poverty.



Depends how wealthy and healthy that Society is. In the US, it's around 15% of it's income.



A Capitalist society is basically pyramid shaped because corporations are basically pyramid shaped.

In short - the general ratio of Workers to Managers to Middle Managers to Upper Managers to Board Members to CEO is many-to-one. A Pyramid shaped organisational hierarchy.

Unless you can fundamentally change that shape - or unless you can ensure that everyone at the base of the pyramid is highly paid - then there will never be plenty of jobs with high-paying salaries.

Because corporation's just don't work that way.

25% of all jobs within the US pay less than the poverty level for a family of four.
More than 50% of all jobs within the US pay < 200% of the poverty level for a family of four.



And that's the crux of our disagreement.

You say that it's better to teach someone to fish than giving them a fish.

I say that it's better to make sure that everyone gets at least one fish when someone has just payed twenty people twelve fish between them to dredge the entire lake for him.

The inequality in this country is breathtaking.





What would you teach them, exactly? Don't get a job paying < 200% of poverty, don't be young, don't grow old, don't be disabled, don't get sick, don't get injured in war?

The Cant's massively outnumber the Wont's. And then some.
Wrong sir!  The Can'ts and The Won'ts and The Didn'ts and the Shouldn'ts and all the N'ts combined massively outnumber the CAns, The Wills, The Dids, And the Shoulds by a never changing number of about 98 - 2.   For every 100 people, 2 of them are Cans and the other 98 are Can'ts.  And as Ford said, and as Troy Aikman loves to quote Ford:  Whether you say you can or you can't...you are correct.,

What we need to do is teach people that the n apostrophe t is what is holding them back...not large corporations, or race or somesuch...freedom...true freedom is being set free from the negative mind set that governs most peoples thought processes.
Edited: because I thought I was finished...in err...
The left of this world are primarily the ones who are coddling the negative mind set.  Why?  Because it is their Power Base...the more Can people there are means the more Power that the Left loses...they need the negative mind set...otherwise..there is no need for them.  Done!

Thought I was done....
Tiggs,
Have you ever read Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich?

Edited by joc, 26 October 2013 - 04:08 AM.

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