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"Giant" Native Tribes of Ancient America

giant native america ancient history

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#256    jmccr8

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 10:35 AM

Okay to clarify I asked one question and made one statement,now it will be plural with two statements.
I didn't seriously consider your comment as an answer , generally speaking an answer is longer than a question,unless of course I asked you if you would like a cup of coffee and a single syllable answer would be considered adequate,like yes or no,even though the long answer of yes or no thank you would be preferred.Even better if it was descriptive like yes thank you and may I have some cream and sugar to go with it please.

  I am 6' 170 lbs,if I added 100 lbs to my weight without any additional height I would still be able to function within acceptable parameters with no physical impediments,at present I do not have any body fat my weight is the sum of muscle and bone.A 100 lb increase would be more than 50% of my current weight and if I added 1' to my height I would not be ungainly in appearance or function.

  Based on your comment I have no idea if you are familiar up close and personal with any animal outside of a house cat or domestic dog.For all I know the only wildlife that you are familiar with could be found in a bar or staring in animal kingdom so there may be perceptual differences that are a barrier to any meaningful discussion.You will have to clarify your position if you expect me to engage in a discussion of any value to me on this subject.

  The mega fauna were not all cumbersome beasts.,and yes I do realize that it took some time to evolve and the smaller versions did't just appear afterwards they were present at the same time,they were just better equipped to survive for a number of reasons.Man being one of them.The large species of deer an,moose,elk,ram.bison were not different than what we have today based on height weight proportion they had a physical balance.

  There are tribes in Africa that are taller some of their members live in the city that I now reside in,they are quite distinct and are height weight proportionate as well. All I am curios about is what is the barrier that inhibits man for attaining a height of 7'-7'6".

  There are you satisfied that I have stepped out of the corner now?If it is your intention to respond with another unsatisfactory response don't bother because I won't
:innocent: :tu:

jmccr8


#257    Piney

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 11:32 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 19 November 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't think that all mega fauna could be described as having shorter more powerful legs,Some of the mega fauna found in N.America like deer, moose, elk and rams would fall into a range of 20% larger than modern versions

jmccr8

No, they're the same size they were back during the Pleistocene.

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#258    spacecowboy342

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 12:22 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 19 November 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Okay to clarify I asked one question and made one statement,now it will be plural with two statements.
I didn't seriously consider your comment as an answer , generally speaking an answer is longer than a question,unless of course I asked you if you would like a cup of coffee and a single syllable answer would be considered adequate,like yes or no,even though the long answer of yes or no thank you would be preferred.Even better if it was descriptive like yes thank you and may I have some cream and sugar to go with it please.

  I am 6' 170 lbs,if I added 100 lbs to my weight without any additional height I would still be able to function within acceptable parameters with no physical impediments,at present I do not have any body fat my weight is the sum of muscle and bone.A 100 lb increase would be more than 50% of my current weight and if I added 1' to my height I would not be ungainly in appearance or function.

  Based on your comment I have no idea if you are familiar up close and personal with any animal outside of a house cat or domestic dog.For all I know the only wildlife that you are familiar with could be found in a bar or staring in animal kingdom so there may be perceptual differences that are a barrier to any meaningful discussion.You will have to clarify your position if you expect me to engage in a discussion of any value to me on this subject.

  The mega fauna were not all cumbersome beasts.,and yes I do realize that it took some time to evolve and the smaller versions did't just appear afterwards they were present at the same time,they were just better equipped to survive for a number of reasons.Man being one of them.The large species of deer an,moose,elk,ram.bison were not different than what we have today based on height weight proportion they had a physical balance.

  There are tribes in Africa that are taller some of their members live in the city that I now reside in,they are quite distinct and are height weight proportionate as well. All I am curios about is what is the barrier that inhibits man for attaining a height of 7'-7'6".

  There are you satisfied that I have stepped out of the corner now?If it is your intention to respond with another unsatisfactory response don't bother because I won't
:innocent: :tu:

jmccr8
Obviously 7' - 7' 6" is well within human range. See the NBA. Much larger than that and you run into circulatory problems and the inabilty for the musculature and bones to support an upright stance. With different bones and musculature it might be accomplished but the result wouldn't look very human.(I think)


#259    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostPiney, on 19 November 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

No, they're the same size they were back during the Pleistocene.

Actually Piney I don't think anyone has seen either Bison antiquus or Bison latifrons in modern times. :lol:  Both of which were more massively built than their modern descendant Bison bison, but more to the point predated modern humans (Hss) and were built for the times in which they lived.

Anatomically modern humans (AMH - Us) were built for the original conditions in which they lived, the African plains/savannah, and show no evidence of having rapidly adapted to glacial conditions by acquiring long hair/fur, more ape-like facial characteristics and a height and weight (often given as around 8 feet and 500 - 600 pounds or more) and all of this practically "over-night". Particularly since humans (Hss) didn't even reach Europe or Asia until c.50,000 BP. Just such changes as in skin/hair/eye color took them 10's of thousands of years to acquire. Which means that "IF" a hominid reached such proportions as is claimed for Bigfoot it wasn't AMH nor would it have tested genetically as Hss.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#260    Piney

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:19 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 November 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Actually Piney I don't think anyone has seen either Bison antiquus or Bison latifrons in modern times. :lol:  Both of which were more massively built than their modern descendant Bison bison, but more to the point predated modern humans (Hss) and were built for the times in which they lived.


They were different species. The Irish elk was huge but Key deer were little fellows and the prehistoric Key deer were actually smaller. I have a fossil elk bone in my collection and a modern North American elk bone for comparison. They didn't change. There were giant beaver here but they weren't the same species. Eastern bison haven't changed since the Paleo either. They were probably a sub-species of Bison bison but they were smaller. I have a few of their bones too.


edit: sloppy post

Edited by Piney, 20 November 2013 - 12:21 AM.

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It takes a certain amount of sophistication to live primitive. Stupid people usually don't survive...............

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#261    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostPiney, on 20 November 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

They were different species. The Irish elk was huge but Key deer were little fellows and the prehistoric Key deer were actually smaller. I have a fossil elk bone in my collection and a modern North American elk bone for comparison. They didn't change. There were giant beaver here but they weren't the same species. Eastern bison haven't changed since the Paleo either. They were probably a sub-species of Bison bison but they were smaller. I have a few of their bones too.


edit: sloppy post

Which is what I assumed when jmccr8 said (in part\):

Quote

...20% larger than modern versions.

Which suggests IMO he wasn't talking about the species level, but the genus level "Bison".

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#262    Piney

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:21 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 20 November 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Which is what I assumed when jmccr8 said (in part\):



Which suggests IMO he wasn't talking about the species level, but the genus level "Bison".

cormac

View Postcormac mac airt, on 20 November 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Which is what I assumed when jmccr8 said (in part\):



Which suggests IMO he wasn't talking about the species level, but the genus level "Bison".

cormac


We're really getting mixed up today. All that Bigfoot talk and we now have the DC of giants running amok. Gets me confused sometimes......which isn't hard.....

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It takes a certain amount of sophistication to live primitive. Stupid people usually don't survive...............

"There aren't any Indians in New Jersey. Just some inbred ******* that live in the woods."

-Donald Trump

#263    jmccr8

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:42 AM

Hi Cormac and Piney,

   Thanks for your response and sorry for the confusion,I really shouldn't post when I am tired.Yes,it was my intent that I was referring to the genus of bison,I had been reading on several different subjects last night and had an information overload going on. I was reading this article from Plos One about the hypothesis of fire use for ecosystem management when I got sidetracked with other thoughts and memories.

  PLOS ONE: Testing the Hypothesis of Fire Use for Ecosystem Management by Neanderthal and Upper Palaeolithic Modern Human Populations

  The article was discussing Australia in one part and my mind began to wander,as I had remembered having read about the giant lemurs that habitated the area when Hss first arrived there and how there were still mega fauna living in Madagascar 500 yrs ago,if I remember correctly they were lemurs as well.And then my mind wandered even further to my childhood.We had neighbors,a mother and son who's names I do remember their names but will not include them, they were a Jewish family, the father never got out of Germany during the war but was able to get his wife and son out before he was killed.I was quite young and my first memory of them was when I was about 2yrs old,the son had knocked on the kitchen door and when my mom opened it there was this torso with long legs and big feet standing there,his shoulders and head disappeared over the door frame.They used to come over quite frequently and I can remember the awe that I felt every time he folded himself over to come thought the doorway.

  It was because of this memory that I was wondering what limited our physiology from having more groups of people of his stature,his was slim but not skinny,more of a lean muscular build like myself,and he was quite agile as I had watched him play ball in the empty field next door to my house with the family of boys form across the lane.Then I started wondering why different genus of animals could product such variation in size and yet humans do not exhibit the same variation in groups.I realize that we do have variants from Pygmies to Taller tribes of Africa,but that the areas outside of Africa do not display the same diversity.

  It is not my intent to project some ancient hominid into giants only to understand if there is some factor that determines these variations.Once again sorry for not having the focus of thought to express this claerly last night,I still have'nt gotten any sleep yat so I am not sure if I have expressed this any better yet.

Thanks
jmccr8


#264    jmccr8

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:20 AM

Hello DecoNoir,

  Sorry if I seemed a little abrupt last night.I noticed in another thread that you enjoy arguing,thats fine however I joined this forum to step out of my comfort zone and learn something new about the world around me, which is why I seldom engage myself outside of this particular section of the forum. I will not argue a point knowingly from a position of ignorance nor would I argue with someone else who is arguing form a position of ignorance it is a fruitless pursuit in my eyes and does nothing to further my understanding of a subject.Obviously if someone is asking questions it is because they are unfamiliar with a subject and pointless exchanges do more harm to both the social and educational value of being here and the subject in question.

  It's not that I am not a sociable kinda guy but I am pretty much all business,just like when I used to go to the gym it's not about hanging around and flexing for the girls and chit chat,it's all about getting what I need to do done and moving on.

jmccr8


#265    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:26 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 20 November 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Hi Cormac and Piney,

   Thanks for your response and sorry for the confusion,I really shouldn't post when I am tired.Yes,it was my intent that I was referring to the genus of bison,I had been reading on several different subjects last night and had an information overload going on. I was reading this article from Plos One about the hypothesis of fire use for ecosystem management when I got sidetracked with other thoughts and memories.

  PLOS ONE: Testing the Hypothesis of Fire Use for Ecosystem Management by Neanderthal and Upper Palaeolithic Modern Human Populations

  The article was discussing Australia in one part and my mind began to wander,as I had remembered having read about the giant lemurs that habitated the area when Hss first arrived there and how there were still mega fauna living in Madagascar 500 yrs ago,if I remember correctly they were lemurs as well.And then my mind wandered even further to my childhood.We had neighbors,a mother and son who's names I do remember their names but will not include them, they were a Jewish family, the father never got out of Germany during the war but was able to get his wife and son out before he was killed.I was quite young and my first memory of them was when I was about 2yrs old,the son had knocked on the kitchen door and when my mom opened it there was this torso with long legs and big feet standing there,his shoulders and head disappeared over the door frame.They used to come over quite frequently and I can remember the awe that I felt every time he folded himself over to come thought the doorway.

  It was because of this memory that I was wondering what limited our physiology from having more groups of people of his stature,his was slim but not skinny,more of a lean muscular build like myself,and he was quite agile as I had watched him play ball in the empty field next door to my house with the family of boys form across the lane.Then I started wondering why different genus of animals could product such variation in size and yet humans do not exhibit the same variation in groups.I realize that we do have variants from Pygmies to Taller tribes of Africa,but that the areas outside of Africa do not display the same diversity.

  It is not my intent to project some ancient hominid into giants only to understand if there is some factor that determines these variations.Once again sorry for not having the focus of thought to express this claerly last night,I still have'nt gotten any sleep yat so I am not sure if I have expressed this any better yet.

Thanks
jmccr8

Think nothing of it. We've all, myself included, posted at times well past the "eyes are engaged but brain has shutdown for the night" phase. :lol:  That being said you might be interested in reading the PDF below entitled "Late Pleistocene northward-dispersing Bison antiquus from the Bighill Creek Formation, Gallelli Gravel Pit, Alberta, Canada, and the fate of Bison occidentalis". It suggests that the modern species Bison bison is not Pleistocene in origin but Early Holocene.

http://pgl.soe.ucsc....S2008Wilson.pdf

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#266    Piney

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:08 PM

NDN's used fire to maintain a "park like" environment in the Eastern U.S. It left the forest open enough for Eastern bison and elk to graze and also for "deer drives". It also reduced the wildfire hazard.

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http://woodlandindia...orums/index.php
It takes a certain amount of sophistication to live primitive. Stupid people usually don't survive...............

"There aren't any Indians in New Jersey. Just some inbred ******* that live in the woods."

-Donald Trump

#267    jmccr8

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

Hi Cormac,

  Thanks for the pdf and for understanding my sleepless mind.I read the pdf last night then had a good sleep,the pdf was a good read I had read some other articles but the info you provided gave a better picture of the time frame and geological conditions of the time in question.

jmccr8


#268    jmccr8

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

Hi Piney,

  I find ancient hominids and their development of tech quite interesting.I posted a link about a year ago in another thread about the use of fire to clear land to encourage the growth of tubers.The manipulation of our environment by early man or homo species gives good insight into our development,last night I was reading another article on forest management in S.America,I had read another article on the subject a couple of yrs ago,before I found out how to copy links and paste.

PLOS ONE: Historical Human Footprint on Modern Tree Species Composition in the Purus-Madeira Interfluve, Central Amazonia

I also came across this article on unifacial stone knapping

PLOS ONE: Paleoindian Unifacial Stone Tool ‘Spurs’: Intended Accessories or Incidental Accidents?

jmccr8


#269    Piney

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 02:50 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 20 November 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Hi Piney,

I also came across this article on unifacial stone knapping

PLOS ONE: Paleoindian Unifacial Stone Tool ‘Spurs’: Intended Accessories or Incidental Accidents?

jmccr8


We call them "gravers". they are the most overlooked surface artifact and I have LOTS of them. Many are made from chert pebbles here in New Jersey and they obliviously served various functions such as decorating wood and pottery, scarification tools for "raising tattoos" and rites, and working steatite (I found some with a steatite workshop). They are found here in all prehistoric contexts.

Token Nanticoke
http://woodlandindia...orums/index.php
It takes a certain amount of sophistication to live primitive. Stupid people usually don't survive...............

"There aren't any Indians in New Jersey. Just some inbred ******* that live in the woods."

-Donald Trump

#270    Hod

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 06:45 AM

Saw this on youtube and thought it might ad to this conversation. I guy writes for Ancient American, so that that for what it's worth. He says he is a stone mason who became interested in the stone structures built around the east coast that didn't seem to be of Native American origin. This led in on a search that ended with - through his research - thinking that these ancient American stone works were built by a race of giants who had two rows of teeth and intermingled with local populations.



This guys seems to be a little more grounded in reality than most who lecture on this subject. That is why I thought it might add to this conversation without the immediate, "That guy is just justifying his personal desires and / or beliefs."






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