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[Merged] Jesus as a tool of the Romans?


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#1    Kahn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:04 AM

http://now.msn.com/j...logical-warfare

Figured I'd throw this up for debate.  I personally cannot figure how this can be claimed just from the number of associated texts pertaining to Jesus.


#2    docyabut2

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 01:27 AM

The Romans had enough gods of their own, the reason they adopted Christiany because the belief  was taking over most of  the people.


#3    davros of skaro

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 02:27 AM

View PostKahn, on 11 October 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

http://now.msn.com/j...logical-warfare

Figured I'd throw this up for debate.  I personally cannot figure how this can be claimed just from the number of associated texts pertaining to Jesus.

Associated texts?What associated texts?

http://rationalwiki....of_Jesus_Christ

Btw here is Atwill's previous film on his hypothesis.



Edited by davros of skaro, 11 October 2013 - 02:35 AM.

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http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MclBbZUFSag <-- "Why The Gospels Are Myth"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=mwUZOZN-9dc <-- "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist"

#4    Kahn

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 11:16 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 11 October 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Associated texts?What associated texts?
OK, we dismiss the Dead Sea Scrolls and several of the agnostic chronicles, no problem.

Edited by Kahn, 11 October 2013 - 11:16 AM.


#5    DeWitz

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

Another matter which this 'research' would have to contend with is the fact that literacy was nowhere near universal in the first century AD. Books were rare and expensive, also. So such a theory would need to rely on the complicity and collaboration of hundreds of synagogues, rabbis and other local religious and political leaders to digest the written "Roman" testament, break from their Hebraic faith, then disseminate the information and somehow enforce the practice of slavery. . .  . . .I don't see any of this as sociologically, politically or spiritually feasible by any stretch of the imagination.

For the past 35+ years I have engaged in continuous biblical and theological studies in the US (and Mexico and Sweden), and am fairly conversant in historical and contemporary issues--and I've never heard of Joseph Atwill.

But that's OK, he's never heard of me, either.

I enjoy creativity, originality, novelty and innovation in scholarly endeavors, but not invention.

Edited by szentgyorgy, 11 October 2013 - 12:59 PM.

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#6    davros of skaro

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:30 PM

View PostKahn, on 11 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

OK, we dismiss the Dead Sea Scrolls and several of the agnostic chronicles, no problem.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are OT,and prophecy is irrevelent to historical facts.

Agnostic chronicles?That's so vague it must be true.

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"I am Caesar and no king" - Gaius Julius Caesar
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MclBbZUFSag <-- "Why The Gospels Are Myth"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=mwUZOZN-9dc <-- "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist"

#7    davros of skaro

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:36 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 11 October 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Another matter which this 'research' would have to contend with is the fact that literacy was nowhere near universal in the first century AD. Books were rare and expensive, also. So such a theory would need to rely on the complicity and collaboration of hundreds of synagogues, rabbis and other local religious and political leaders to digest the written "Roman" testament, break from their Hebraic faith, then disseminate the information and somehow enforce the practice of slavery. . .  . . .I don't see any of this as sociologically, politically or spiritually feasible by any stretch of the imagination.

For the past 35+ years I have engaged in continuous biblical and theological studies in the US (and Mexico and Sweden), and am fairly conversant in historical and contemporary issues--and I've never heard of Joseph Atwill.

But that's OK, he's never heard of me, either.

I enjoy creativity, originality, novelty and innovation in scholarly endeavors, but not invention.

When the first Gospel was written (Mark) 65-70 CE the Temple was destroyed,or very close to it.

The Jews were dispersed from Judea,and a great many were taken as slaves.

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"I am Caesar and no king" - Gaius Julius Caesar
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MclBbZUFSag <-- "Why The Gospels Are Myth"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=mwUZOZN-9dc <-- "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist"

#8    ranrod

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:39 PM

http://www.rawstory....y-ops-campaign/

Seems plausible.  All it would take is bribing a few rabbis into seeding dissent by propagating the idea of a peaceful messiah.  If this began as a regional experiment that spread and diverged over a century or two, it explains how the different stories from different authors who organically arouse eventually started competing with one another, creating contradictions and inconsistencies and the need to re-consolidate into the NT some time later.  I'd need to find some good references but I believe it's known the Romans saw religion as a way to control the masses.


#9    questionmark

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:53 PM

Then it sure backfired. By a lot.

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#10    Tiggs

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:02 PM

I don't believe for a second that he has any form of written confession from the gospel authors.

At least, not without him producing them for thorough peer review.


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#11    ranrod

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostTiggs, on 12 October 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

I don't believe for a second that he has any form of written confession from the gospel authors.

At least, not without him producing them for thorough peer review.
It would've been better if he produced the documents at the same time as the announcement.  He'll show all his findings a week from now for anyone to review.  The letters are not from the gospel author, but the people who conscripted the work.


#12    Tiggs

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:29 PM

View Postranrod, on 12 October 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

It would've been better if he produced the documents at the same time as the announcement.  He'll show all his findings a week from now for anyone to review.  The letters are not from the gospel author, but the people who conscripted the work.
I'm suspicious of anyone who seeks publicity first with promises of corroborating evidence afterwards. I'll guess we'll see, shortly enough.


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#13    DeWitz

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:29 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 11 October 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

When the first Gospel was written (Mark) 65-70 CE the Temple was destroyed,or very close to it.

The Jews were dispersed from Judea,and a great many were taken as slaves.

The Jewish Diaspora from Judea/Palestine was not a complete 'cleansing.'. The end of second Temple worship did contribute to the Diaspora, but there has remained a constant presence of synagogue-based Judaism there since the first century. The fact of enslavement has little or nothing to do with this theory; there were Jewish slaves before, during and after Jesus' time/the destruction of the Temple.

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#14    davros of skaro

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:36 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 12 October 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

The Jewish Diaspora from Judea/Palestine was not a complete 'cleansing.'. The end of second Temple worship did contribute to the Diaspora, but there has remained a constant presence of synagogue-based Judaism there since the first century. The fact of enslavement has little or nothing to do with this theory; there were Jewish slaves before, during and after Jesus' time/the destruction of the Temple.

Just incase you are interested?

Josephus "Wars of the Jews". Be sure to check out; CHAPTER 3. 4,5

http://www.gutenberg...50-h/2850-h.htm

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http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MclBbZUFSag <-- "Why The Gospels Are Myth"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=mwUZOZN-9dc <-- "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist"

#15    davros of skaro

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:43 AM

View PostKahn, on 11 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

OK, we dismiss the Dead Sea Scrolls and several of the agnostic chronicles, no problem.

Did you know Yahweh had a wife named Anat-Yahu?

http://en.wikipedia....phantine_papyri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anat

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"I am Caesar and no king" - Gaius Julius Caesar
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MclBbZUFSag <-- "Why The Gospels Are Myth"
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=mwUZOZN-9dc <-- "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist"




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