40th anniversary of Pascagoula abduction

[quillius]

Gidday Mate

Have not had time yet, been the weekend and all, but no, it was not the Daily Star, it was one of the links from the Miguel site I am pretty sure. I remember Charlie mentioning a small hand held rock that assisted his communications with the beings. I remember reading about the shotgun across his legs on another tab at the time. Either way, Charlie does claim further contacts,

Gidday mate, I too will be pressed for time this week, but will post when I can. No rush on that info should you come across it. And yes I agree that Charlie did claim further contact.....

Not only admitted to, the police suspected intoxication, and Diamond was the one to go down that path initially.

yes admitted to, but this is still just his word that he drank. In the same way its just their word Calvin didnt. So what I am saying is that if we take his word that he drank we must also accept that Calvin didnt. No way around this unless we have a report showing the men were tested.

I honestly don't know about that, this could be read that way for sure:

Hickson: "I tell you, when we're through, I'll get you something to settle you down so you can get some damn sleep."

What would he have to send him to sleep, and how did he know this would be the remedy to Clavins distress?

It would sure explain why Calvin thought he just passed out.

well calvin says he needs to get to bed or get some nerve pills or see the doctor....as for a remedy, if you can be put to sleep it certainly would momentarily take the distress away.

And the Daily Fail, FOX, Pravda...... most of the good UFO resources.........

This is what I see:

CALVIN: I got to get home and get to bed or get some nerve pills or see the doctor or something. I can't stand it. I'm about to go half crazy.

CHARLIE: I tell you, when we through, I'll get you something to settle you down so you can get some damn sleep.

CALVIN: I can't sleep yet like it is. I'm just damn near crazy.

Calvin distressed, Charlie can fix it

as the father figure should, dont see anything nefaruious with this comment, he was lookign after calvin who was 18 versus Charlies age of 40.

CHARLIE: Well, Calvin, when they brought you out-when they brought me out of that thing, goddamn it I like to never in hell got you straightened out.

His voice rising, Calvin said, "My damn arms, my arms, I remember they just froze up and I couldn't move. Just like I stepped on a damn rattlesnake." [sic]

"They didn't do me that way," sighed Charlie.

Again, Charlie driving, Charlie gave the situation, Calvin went with it. Calvin adds detail, Charlie leaves him with it, so that Clavin has "his own" experience.

but its Calvin who is mentioning the beings garbbing him, dont see Charlie driving this at all.

CALVIN: I passed out. I expect I never passed out in my whole life.

CHARLIE: I've never seen nothin' like that before in my life. You can't make people believe-

CALVIN: I don't want to keep sittin' here. I want to see a doctor-

CHARLIE: They better wake up and start believin' . . . they better start believin'.

Better wake up and start believing? Why? Because the Bible is right?

start believing there is 'something' outthere. no mention of the bible or reference to any link

CALVIN: You see how that damn door come right up?

CHARLIE: I don't know how it opened, son. I don't know.

CALVIN: It just laid up and just like that those son' b****es-just like that they come out.

CHARLIE: I know. You can't believe it. You can't make people believe it-

CALVIN: I paralyzed right then. I couldn't move-

CHARLIE: They won't believe it. They gonna believe it one of these days. Might be too late. I knew all along they was people from other worlds up there. I knew all along. I never thought it would happen to me.

Charlie confirming Calvins recollection, which I feel could have been anything at this point.

but its still calvins recollection, not words put in his mouth by charlie. Also Charlies words 'people from other worlds up there' confirms the previous point when discussing 'peopel better believe' Edited November 11, 2013 by quillius

[quillius]

CALVIN: You know yourself I don't drink

CHARLIE: I know that, son. When I get to the house I'm gonna get me another drink, make me sleep. Look, what we sittin' around for. I gotta go tell Blanche . . . what we waitin' for?

CALVIN (panicky): I gotta go to the house. I'm gettin' sick. I gotta get out of here.

Then Charlie got up and left the room, and Calvin was alone.

CALVIN: It's hard to believe . . . Oh God, it's awful . . . I know there's a God up there. . . .

Now this is pretty important I think, Calvin knows there is God up there, and this is exactly what his alien confirmed for him 20 years later. That's a firm connection between the so called crazy Calvin and the so called sane Calvin with the Bible and aliens.

Yes both men were religious, I dont see how their faith confirms a link to insanity?

Well, not to me I guess, the artist impression seems to have grown in the middle, taken on a more definite shape with some type of upturned tail, he said it had blue lights, now it is blue with white lights.

the difference is slight and negligable, the objects are very similar showing consitancy and it also shows that scale can be safely discounted.

And as we know, he initially started out at 8 foot by 8 foot, which would be ridiculous, I do no think revision of the estimate is out of the realms of possibility here

never out the realms of possibility, although we still have a drawing showing 10ft x 30ft

I guess we are left to disagree here, I do not see all this in one (probably) 30 foot craft.

10 feet out due to glowing? How so?

10ft maybe excessive but an object can definitley seem bigger witha glow.

But still directional yes? So made from a predator? Something with eyes in the front of it's head? So obviously not the carrot heads, but the gorgeous messenger of God?

portholes would not be directional. headlights, yes, but we are a long way of establishing the two 'lights/holes' as headlights of sorts.

A messenger of God needs a spaceship?

only if you interpret the previous as a 'gorgeous messanger of God'...in court I would say 'objection your honour' and he would respond with 'sustained' .

What we do have is tone old man, one young man alone, witnessing something that makes little sense, had Whiskey with them, was not seen by any tracking on earth, yet aliens told them the bible was accurate, played with their private bits when they were immobile, and spent years worried about it from a fire and brimstone angle claiming at least one party was raped by aliens yet both men who were initially terrified suddenly found telepathic communication was not terrifying?

all claims that came many years after, I struggle to see their validity if we focus on the timeframe and actual words spoken by the men. We know the fallibility of human memory especailly 20 years later, with or without the possible 'sanity' part entering the equation.

And sold a very lucrative book that one struggles to purchase for under $200.00 second hand?

hmm, lucrative? I think not, the current value indiactes limited copies were sold, so it actually is the opposite of what is suggested

Ya know, if I suddenly heard voices in my head, comfort is not the first emotion I would experience.

I think context is key here, if you for example, believe in God and hear him talking to you then I can see how comfort would be the number one emotion.

[scowl]

ok, but also remember that we began the debate here with you discussing the medical check up and how the 'eye injury' wasnt checked or even mentioned......so here we have another medical report we have not seen.

In this case you think that a missing or perhaps non-existent medical report is of no relevance whatsoever even though it would support the abductee's claim. However when a medical report would discount the abductee's story only then do you believe it's imperative that we have this report in our hands before saying anything about it.

When alleged evidence that supports a claim is missing, pretend it exists. When alleged evidence that discounts a claim is missing, demand it or say it doesn't exist.

UFO explained, produced in 1975. Cant remember page number but there is around 20 pages about Pascagoula. I just think its interesting that Klass claims to have heard this from two different people and yet never attacked this claim himself. I havent the info you ask but I will keep searching.

I definitely have this book in the attic somewhere and will look for it next weekend.

Although Mothman Prophecies is a worthless book, John Keel who normally believed every UFO sighting ever reported said he believed this one was a hoax because the area they were in was "under constant video surveillance" and no one saw anything. He also mentioned that Calvin had mental problems afterwards but (typical John Keel) never cited his source.

Yes but at the Ingalls shipping yard teh plant went from strength to strength, with immnese growth, this was not seasonal by any stretch of the imagination

If you've read about Calvin, you know that he quit his job at the shipping yard and took a better paying job in construction. Despite its "immnese growth", they were paying Calvin minimum wage.

why? maybe pride? maybe thought he could make more money if he now pretended to remember what happened on board the craft? maybe false memory? maybe because he has lost the plot?

Or maybe he's a habitual liar?

believe a liar? everyone lies and everyone tells the truth........the gift is differentiating.

Unlike you, when someone says they were abducted by aliens and there is no evidence of this claim and their story keeps changing, my "gift" tells me they're lying.

[psyche101]

Gidday mate, I too will be pressed for time this week, but will post when I can. No rush on that info should you come across it. And yes I agree that Charlie did claim further contact.....

Gidday

That time of year isn't it! Good part is it means we have a break coming up.

If Charlie claimed further contact, surely that corroborates Calvins 20 year return trip? Both men claim to have maintained contact, surely that means the aliens that were seen when Calvin is considered crazy are the same ones they saw when he was considered sane?

yes admitted to, but this is still just his word that he drank. In the same way its just their word Calvin didnt. So what I am saying is that if we take his word that he drank we must also accept that Calvin didnt. No way around this unless we have a report showing the men were tested.

But the police were trained in spotting such and suspected intoxication. Charlie admitted to it, and my musing is that Charlie may not have told Calvin he had anything to drink, which might be interpreted as the result when Calvin claimed he felt sick at the Police Station.

We have no objection to Whiskey being present, and no blood tests. Possibilities are quite open I would say. Yes we have Charlies admission that he drank, but would he admit to spiking Calvins drink if he really did go to such lengths to cover up something else?

well calvin says he needs to get to bed or get some nerve pills or see the doctor....as for a remedy, if you can be put to sleep it certainly would momentarily take the distress away.

Indeed, and Charlie was sure he had something to claim Calvins Nerves. Past experience?

as the father figure should, dont see anything nefaruious with this comment, he was lookign after calvin who was 18 versus Charlies age of 40.

Father figure, that is indicating a close relationship isn't it though?

As above, I was more interested that Carlie seemed he knew exactly how to get Clavin to sleep. Not Hell I can't sleep either, or don't know if I will ever sleep again, but I WILL get you to sleep?

but its Calvin who is mentioning the beings garbbing him, dont see Charlie driving this at all.

start believing there is 'something' outthere. no mention of the bible or reference to any link

CHARLIE: Well, Calvin, when they brought you out-when they brought me out of that thing, goddamn it I like to never in hell got you straightened out. His voice rising, Calvin said, "My damn arms, my arms, I remember they just froze up and I couldn't move. Just like I stepped on a damn rattlesnake." "They didn't do me that way", sighed Charlie.

Isn't Charlie telling Clavin where he was? Charlie just added more details. which Charlie supported, even though in different rooms, but more than that, what do you reckon this means?

I like to never in hell got you straightened out.

Makes no sense to me?

but its still calvins recollection, not words put in his mouth by charlie. Also Charlies words 'people from other worlds up there' confirms the previous point when discussing 'peopel better believe'

Yes, that is what I did say, meaning that Charlie has Calvins confidence here. If Charlie actually caused the blackout, this would make his life very easy for him wouldn't it?

I still see the belief connected to the very strong religious lifestyle that seems to permeate the entire area, Clavin in particular, being a bit slow, and possibly more open to superstition. People from other worlds might mean aliens the Charlie, but Clavins religious connection s extraordinarily strong.

Both men received messages too, one that we are not ready, do not want to harm you blah blah, usual alien movie BS, yet Clavins experience confirmed his religious belief. I still really think a Psychiatrist would be better to evaluate this case than UFOlogists, I wonder if John Mack had a look at it?

[psyche101]

Yes both men were religious, I dont see how their faith confirms a link to insanity?

Redemption, and similar concepts of damnation for similar reasons.

I was raped by beings from another planet

The 1993 video begins with a statement that, between the lines, we can indicate the reasons that led Parker to produce this video and most likely, to invent new details: "Raped. I have been violated. I have been raped by creatures from another planet. " Start the video claiming to have been violated is, somehow, trying to break free of guilt about what happened in 1973. But freedom from guilt to whom? reviewing, in detail, your new account you can conclude that Parker sought to redeem himself in his faith: Christianity. In the original story of the 1973 abduction, Parker said she collapsed when one of the beings robots seemed touched his arm. In this testimony, 1993, Parker explains that these robots injected with a substance in the arm to paralyze: "And when they came (the people who seemed robots), one of them injected me something in the arm, and my body was completely paralyzed, I could not feel anything, I could not move anything, my muscles were paralyzed. "

the difference is slight and negligable, the objects are very similar showing consitancy and it also shows that scale can be safely discounted.

I honestly do not see it, I see a craft slowly getting wider in the middle, and becoming blue instead of having blue lights. It really sounds more like revision. Like the size that is different depending on the source, remember one source even said 3M x 3M!

And not the Daily Fail or my old mate Joe!

never out the realms of possibility, although we still have a drawing showing 10ft x 30ft

And a recorded and verified transcript saying 8 foot by 8 ft.

10ft maybe excessive but an object can definitley seem bigger witha glow.

But his coloured in version of his claim shows definite edges, not a fuzzy outline.

portholes would not be directional. headlights, yes, but we are a long way of establishing the two 'lights/holes' as headlights of sorts.

Indeed, the craft is not my interest, it is the occupants, whom must be somewhat familiar if they require direction. Even if portholes, it is still at the front of the craft, so we have a recognisable creature guiding the craft, which would be the gorgeous woman that Calvin met, and Charlie supposedly communicated with. Other than the carrot heads, the only thing Charlie saw was the mechanical eye wasn't it? Who else could it be?

So, as I say, that means the carrot heads (giving the benefit of the doubt) are not the pilots. But a recognisable species, and the only one mentioned is Clavin's messenger of God.

only if you interpret the previous as a 'gorgeous messanger of God'...in court I would say 'objection your honour' and he would respond with 'sustained' .

Again, what other candidates exist? Do you have anyone to take the stand here?

all claims that came many years after, I struggle to see their validity if we focus on the timeframe and actual words spoken by the men. We know the fallibility of human memory especailly 20 years later, with or without the possible 'sanity' part entering the equation.

Why do Charlie and Calvin both see no contradiction here then?

Charlie as far as I know does not in any way object to Calvins continued recollections? Shouldn't he?

Would that not be suggesting that both men are insane, and if so, does not Charlies initial wavering of the claim indicate that the initial encounter is also the product of a faulty mind?

hmm, lucrative? I think not, the current value indiactes limited copies were sold, so it actually is the opposite of what is suggested

How is a small investment that dramatically increases in value not lucrative?

I think context is key here, if you for example, believe in God and hear him talking to you then I can see how comfort would be the number one emotion.

But before that point, he had only been abducted and to all accounts, assumed the aliens as nefarious?

That would be more like a religious person experiencing the devil in their ear would it not? Remember this is the experience that reportedly sent Clavin over the edge, but suddenly they seem the opposite? They Raped Clavin, yet he finds them benevolent and a messenger of God. Major contradictions there, although time separates the incidents, the men do not object to each other. Did Charlie ever comment on Calvins 20 year later experience that you know of? I honestly think he should have if the events are not connected.

[DONTEATUS]

Now what movie is this were talking about ? Oh ! I now Its All real and therefore Going to be a Movie ! Like Independence day !

[psyche101]

Now what movie is this were talking about ? Oh ! I now Its All real and therefore Going to be a Movie ! Like Independence day !

Will Smith actually exists?

[quillius]

In this case you think that a missing or perhaps non-existent medical report is of no relevance whatsoever even though it would support the abductee's claim. However when a medical report would discount the abductee's story only then do you believe it's imperative that we have this report in our hands before saying anything about it.

if you read back I said 'ok' as in I agreed with you. We dont have any medical records so I cant prove he was hospitalised. I am saying that without any of the medical reports then its all hearsay to an extent. I also think that the 'other' information pointing to the men having had a medical examination is stronger than the information we have regarding Calvins 'emotional breakdown'.

When alleged evidence that supports a claim is missing, pretend it exists. When alleged evidence that discounts a claim is missing, demand it or say it doesn't exist.

Again you seem to not be reading what I said. I challenged your claim that it was introduced by Jerome Clark, I told you that it was not introduced then and cited a book by Klass who mentions it twice and says he was told by two different people. The validity of the claim is unproven without any further information, like hospital records.....

I definitely have this book in the attic somewhere and will look for it next weekend.

ok

Although Mothman Prophecies is a worthless book, John Keel who normally believed every UFO sighting ever reported said he believed this one was a hoax because the area they were in was "under constant video surveillance" and no one saw anything. He also mentioned that Calvin had mental problems afterwards but (typical John Keel) never cited his source.

so says 'susequent investigation by Joe' right?, I would not be much stock into John Kells comments as he has some poor sources obviously.

If you've read about Calvin, you know that he quit his job at the shipping yard and took a better paying job in construction. Despite its "immnese growth", they were paying Calvin minimum wage.

better paying construction job? I thought you were arguing it was due to seasonal reasons the moves happened as opposed to improving pay packet????

Or maybe he's a habitual liar?

yes of course its possible. My interpretation of the transcripts and recordings I have heard is that he was not lying and believed he had the experince he claimed.

Unlike you, when someone says they were abducted by aliens and there is no evidence of this claim and their story keeps changing, my "gift" tells me they're lying.

then your 'gift' is limited my friend.

[quillius]

Gidday

That time of year isn't it! Good part is it means we have a break coming up.

Gidday mate, yes indeed, very much needed at the moment....

If Charlie claimed further contact, surely that corroborates Calvins 20 year return trip? Both men claim to have maintained contact, surely that means the aliens that were seen when Calvin is considered crazy are the same ones they saw when he was considered sane?

not sure what this corroborates to be honest. If we use the example of someone who has lost someone very close, then years later they suffer a breakdown and claim to see the person in question, one would not think the initial 'memory' that is creating the apparition is false, it just indicates that the mind is able to manifest memorys in various ways....especially years after

But the police were trained in spotting such and suspected intoxication. Charlie admitted to it, and my musing is that Charlie may not have told Calvin he had anything to drink, which might be interpreted as the result when Calvin claimed he felt sick at the Police Station.

We have no objection to Whiskey being present, and no blood tests. Possibilities are quite open I would say. Yes we have Charlies admission that he drank, but would he admit to spiking Calvins drink if he really did go to such lengths to cover up something else?

yes they are trained but it seems it was the story they told that raised that possibility coupled with Charlies admission to drinking. There is nothing to say that just by looking at the men the shriff arrived at said possibility. I think Charlie said he had the drink sitting int he car prior to contacting the sheriff, so Calvin would have seen him drink.

Indeed, and Charlie was sure he had something to claim Calvins Nerves. Past experience?

past experience of calming his own nerves maybe?, even though past experience is speculative in itself.

Father figure, that is indicating a close relationship isn't it though?

yes, Calvins father trusted Charlie enough to send his son to be looked after by Charlie. Charlie got him a job and I would expect a close relationship...as a fatherly figure. I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

As above, I was more interested that Carlie seemed he knew exactly how to get Clavin to sleep. Not Hell I can't sleep either, or don't know if I will ever sleep again, but I WILL get you to sleep?

he actually said something to help calm you down to enable you to sleep, rather than something that makes you sleep

CHARLIE: Well, Calvin, when they brought you out-when they brought me out of that thing, goddamn it I like to never in hell got you straightened out. His voice rising, Calvin said, "My damn arms, my arms, I remember they just froze up and I couldn't move. Just like I stepped on a damn rattlesnake." "They didn't do me that way", sighed Charlie.

Isn't Charlie telling Clavin where he was? Charlie just added more details. which Charlie supported, even though in different rooms, but more than that, what do you reckon this means?

I like to never in hell got you straightened out.

Makes no sense to me?

many of the sentences dont, we have to think about context, context being the intelligence of teh men, the timeframe, the trauma of the experience....all these factors would make anyone talk elements of jibberish and some sentences would not be cohesive....I would expect this and see it as supporting rather than opposing.

Yes, that is what I did say, meaning that Charlie has Calvins confidence here. If Charlie actually caused the blackout, this would make his life very easy for him wouldn't it?

although Calvin would not have a memory of the light, the door opening, the beings etc

I still see the belief connected to the very strong religious lifestyle that seems to permeate the entire area, Clavin in particular, being a bit slow, and possibly more open to superstition. People from other worlds might mean aliens the Charlie, but Clavins religious connection s extraordinarily strong.

I dont see how their belief would have a bearing, wouldnt angels seem more appropriate?

Both men received messages too, one that we are not ready, do not want to harm you blah blah, usual alien movie BS, yet Clavins experience confirmed his religious belief. I still really think a Psychiatrist would be better to evaluate this case than UFOlogists, I wonder if John Mack had a look at it?

I have a feeling he did, what about the other Doctor that I alluded to in an earlier post (from a link you provided)

Detective Huntley then contacted Keesler, and the group headed off to the Air Base where a group of doctors under security conditions examined Hickson and Parker. Their medical report indicates that both men were in a severe state of mental stress, due to a traumatic experience, and that the men's report is probably correct, and that no radiation exposure was found

In 1976, three years later, Dr. Bast of the Harvard Hospital of Detroit conducted further psychological tests with both men. He concluded that neither of them suffers from any psychotic behaviour, hysteria or brain damage. He could not find any evidence of a twin-madness syndrome, a behaviour in which a subject of madness can exert some contamination on another person.

[quillius]

Redemption, and similar concepts of damnation for similar reasons.

I was raped by beings from another planet

The 1993 video begins with a statement that, between the lines, we can indicate the reasons that led Parker to produce this video and most likely, to invent new details: "Raped. I have been violated. I have been raped by creatures from another planet. " Start the video claiming to have been violated is, somehow, trying to break free of guilt about what happened in 1973. But freedom from guilt to whom? reviewing, in detail, your new account you can conclude that Parker sought to redeem himself in his faith: Christianity. In the original story of the 1973 abduction, Parker said she collapsed when one of the beings robots seemed touched his arm. In this testimony, 1993, Parker explains that these robots injected with a substance in the arm to paralyze: "And when they came (the people who seemed robots), one of them injected me something in the arm, and my body was completely paralyzed, I could not feel anything, I could not move anything, my muscles were paralyzed. "

I just struggle with anything Calvin says so many years after.

I honestly do not see it, I see a craft slowly getting wider in the middle, and becoming blue instead of having blue lights. It really sounds more like revision. Like the size that is different depending on the source, remember one source even said 3M x 3M!

And not the Daily Fail or my old mate Joe!

ignoring the sources which seem to all make things up as they go along, we shoul;d focus on Charlies actual words, and everytime I have listened to any recording he is constistant with size.

And a recorded and verified transcript saying 8 foot by 8 ft.

have you listened to the military interview? neither have I, however all other recording we have of Charlie, where we listened to his own voice, they are all consistant, so I argue that there is potentially an error in the transcript at best, or Charlie made an error under the

intense interrogation.....

But his coloured in version of his claim shows definite edges, not a fuzzy outline.

yes but the artist tries to capture the glow effect

Indeed, the craft is not my interest, it is the occupants, whom must be somewhat familiar if they require direction. Even if portholes, it is still at the front of the craft, so we have a recognisable creature guiding the craft, which would be the gorgeous woman that Calvin met, and Charlie supposedly communicated with. Other than the carrot heads, the only thing Charlie saw was the mechanical eye wasn't it? Who else could it be?

So, as I say, that means the carrot heads (giving the benefit of the doubt) are not the pilots. But a recognisable species, and the only one mentioned is Clavin's messenger of God.

Charlie talks of human like beings, he says the creatures were more robotic. Even though this comes at the future sighting. If we stick to timeframe then there is no need for a messanger of God, rendering the point moot

Again, what other candidates exist? Do you have anyone to take the stand here?

no need if we were in court during the time, however if in the future follwoing on from their 'elaborations' then I would call to the stand the 'non-robotic' beings Charlie mentions

Why do Charlie and Calvin both see no contradiction here then?

Charlie as far as I know does not in any way object to Calvins continued recollections? Shouldn't he?

Would that not be suggesting that both men are insane, and if so, does not Charlies initial wavering of the claim indicate that the initial encounter is also the product of a faulty mind?

I think it would be good to see what Charlie said many years later once Calvin made his claims, I will see what I can find.

How is a small investment that dramatically increases in value not lucrative?

not at all. The fact they are worth $200 now indicates that few copies were sold, the initial copies are where the men would make money not future royalties on second hand value. They have no royalty on second hand sales. I guess an analogy/comparison would be a painter who many years ago sold a painting for a few $$ then 50 years later the painting is sold for millions........this does not indicate that the painter had a lucrative trade.

But before that point, he had only been abducted and to all accounts, assumed the aliens as nefarious?

That would be more like a religious person experiencing the devil in their ear would it not? Remember this is the experience that reportedly sent Clavin over the edge, but suddenly they seem the opposite? They Raped Clavin, yet he finds them benevolent and a messenger of God. Major contradictions there, although time separates the incidents, the men do not object to each other. Did Charlie ever comment on Calvins 20 year later experience that you know of? I honestly think he should have if the events are not connected.

actually Charlie says in the early interviews/interrogations that he felt he was not under threat.

The major contradictions you allude to only appear many years later when Calvin is 'dressing up' the story.

[scowl]

The major contradictions you allude to only appear many years later when Calvin is 'dressing up' the story.

By "dressing up" you mean lying. Another case of liars lying and people choosing to believe the parts they like and ignoring the lies that make them uncomfortable.

Hey, when you've been abducted by aliens you have no choice but embellish your story otherwise it won't be interesting. Right?

We went through this same nonsense with Ed Walters twenty years later.

[quillius]

By "dressing up" you mean lying. Another case of liars lying and people choosing to believe the parts they like and ignoring the lies that make them uncomfortable.

Hey, when you've been abducted by aliens you have no choice but embellish your story otherwise it won't be interesting. Right?

We went through this same nonsense with Ed Walters twenty years later.

Yes it would be lying.....this however would only be true if we assume he doesnt believe what he is saying.

[1963]

Hey Quillius,...I see that you have taken a shine to this case, and hastily skirting through the thread I also see that you feel that there could be a lot of merit in Hickson and Parker's story.

Well...being a jack of all cases and master of none, of course i'm pretty familiar with the basics of the case [but obviously, not as intensely as you tend to go.]..and to be honest my friend , my current position on the validity of the 'actual abduction' is that I find myself " less than favourably convinced"! [essentially based on my opinions of the 'outrageous descriptions of the entities' and subsequent character traits of the witnesses'.]

The discrepancies in descriptions of 'The Beings'..'The Craft'...and even the alleged actions of 'The Witnesses' during the event are plentiful and pretty stretching in this case...[not to mention that forty years later, Calvin Parker seems to be talking about a different encounter altogether!]...but even so, imo that's not enough to make this one 'a non-starter'!

As you're probably aware,..I always tend to give a fair amount of leeway to the inevitable verbal aberrations between statements of multiple witnesses, ...and also understand that with the passing of time, the original account of events will slightly alter. [it is only natural that one tends to 'remember' a few minor details later-on when reflecting on the event without the sheer intensity in the immediate aftermath!...I also understand that even though these 'later-remembering's' might appear to be totally genuine recollections to the individual, that these reminiscences could indeed be false interpretations of 'fact' mixed with 'imagination or unrelated snippets of memories from previously observed scenarios'...such as someone's mind imprinting some facial-features seen on a science-fiction-movie onto the poorly remembered face of the object of the trauma.]....Having said all that,...I consider myself to be a fundamentally a simple and uncomplicated sort of chap, that feels that something as primeval and unscientific as 'Gut-Instinct' can, ..and should play a part in any discernibility of claims in such unusual cases such as this [all cases for that matter]...and in this case, mine screams out that both men are lying about the abduction!

However, [yep, ..speculation time. ].... I do believe that it is pretty likely that Charlie and Calvin had a real close encounter with a real UFO that night. [Really close...maybe a couple of feet or so.] ..And there has been numerous cases of well-detailed close encounters of this kind that often come accompanied with the expression of the witness feeling a great sense of terror!...as though there was a real foreboding element to coming up-close to one of these things! [could there be an element of infrasound to these things?] And I'm sure that you are aware that the Pascagoula incident was pretty famous in itself, but the broader outlook is that it was only a small part of the great Ohio UFO Wave of 1973, and there were many interesting UFO reports at that time. [not just in the US , but Europe was buzzing as well]

...including this one that may well be relevant ...if true?...

http://news.google.c...ight beam&hl=en

...and according to a newspaper article on the 16th Oct, ..at least 12 other residents around the Pascagoula area reported "seeing a strange object in the sky at the time of the alleged abduction"

and...I don't know how reliable these statements on the Patrick Gross site are? ..but...

"On October 10, 1973, fifteen different people, including two policemen reported seeing a large, silver UFO slowly fly over a housing project in St. Tammany Parish, New Orleans, Louisiana. This was just one more UFO sighting, except that on the next day another event would reach national attention, ninety miles to the East.

As the men were still in the Sheriff's office, a former pilot called and stated he saw a UFO at about 08:00pm near the Pascagoula River. A city former city counsellor and several other people also reported later to report their sighting.

Three different people have phoned the Sheriff's office to report their observation of a strange blue light in the area where the two men were abducted. These people remained anonymous, they were driving on the Interstate 90 a few hundred yards from the abduction's location that night.

28 years later a witness comes forward, according to the newspaper "Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal" of October 21, 2001. It even seems reasonable to think that this witness is one of the three people in the car on Route 90 as mentioned above, this time the witness gave his name.

Two days after the events, a meteorologist of Columbia reported that he had a strange radar echo the same day: He first thought it was a plane, but started to winder about that when the echo remains stationary and his radar was completely jammed moments later.

There has been another possible independent confirmation: at 9:00pm after watching TV, Larry Booth of Pascagoula got up to check the front door prior to going to bed. He noticed a huge object with red revolving lights hovering 8-10 feet over the street lamp. He thought it was an experimental craft run out of the local military base."

http://ufologie.patr.../pascagoula.htm

...and interestingly enough, I have seen several references to Charles Hickson's having 'a couple of shots of whiskey before entering the police station, and also that "When the witnesses arrived at the station..Sheriff Fred Diamond ordered his deputies to give the men a breath analysis test".. but then haven't seen the results of that test. ...And then in this newspaper interview on the 16th, Sheriff Diamond declares that "Neither of them had been drinking" ...

http://ufor.asn.au/p..._Searchable.pdf

...so is it fair to say that the police were satisfied that the consumption of alcohol played no part in the story?...I think so.

...and of course it too may bare no relation to the case, but i'm sure that you will be aware that the equally famous Lawrence Coyne UFO/Helicopter incident occurred exactly one week after the Pascagoula incident. [maybe nothing, but noteworthyly-interesting to me at least.]

And finally as an interesting aside, [well to me anyway . lol.] I also wonder if the ruinous career making photograph that Police Chief Jeff Greenhaw took and presented as a genuine encounter six days later, and 350 miles away in Falkville Alabama was as a direct result of 'someone..?' reading/hearing about the robotic extraterrestrials in Pascagoula?

http://www.americanm...le-alabama-usa/

Sorry to ramble on Quillius, and more apologies in case of duplicated information! [which happens when a lazy poster jumps in late on in the thread. ]

Cheers Buddy.

[quillius]

Hey Quillius,...I see that you have taken a shine to this case, and hastily skirting through the thread I also see that you feel that there could be a lot of merit in Hickson and Parker's story.

Well...being a jack of all cases and master of none, of course i'm pretty familiar with the basics of the case [but obviously, not as intensely as you tend to go.]..and to be honest my friend , my current position on the validity of the 'actual abduction' is that I find myself " less than favourably convinced"! [essentially based on my opinions of the 'outrageous descriptions of the entities' and subsequent character traits of the witnesses'.]

The discrepancies in descriptions of 'The Beings'..'The Craft'...and even the alleged actions of 'The Witnesses' during the event are plentiful and pretty stretching in this case...[not to mention that forty years later, Calvin Parker seems to be talking about a different encounter altogether!]...but even so, imo that's not enough to make this one 'a non-starter'!

Hello buddy, good to see you join in the debate. You are right in that I do really like this case. The bottom line for me is having read and listened to the various first hand testimony/interviews/secret recordings I am convinced that both men are not lying and that they believe they had an experience in line with what they claim.

To be honest I have yet to see the discrepencies that you mention, I feel these discrpencies only happen when we are talking about the various elaborations that happened many years later, also worth noting that these came after hypnosis, which in itself can create numerous issues. I have yet to see any discrepency (many journalists/debunkers have said there are many), there is only one I am aware of. This is during the military interrogation when Charlies is 'supposed' to have said 8ft x 8ft rather than 8ft x 8ft x 30ft. Is there any specific discrepency you can point me too?

As you're probably aware,..I always tend to give a fair amount of leeway to the inevitable verbal aberrations between statements of multiple witnesses, ...and also understand that with the passing of time, the original account of events will slightly alter. [it is only natural that one tends to 'remember' a few minor details later-on when reflecting on the event without the sheer intensity in the immediate aftermath!...I also understand that even though these 'later-remembering's' might appear to be totally genuine recollections to the individual, that these reminiscences could indeed be false interpretations of 'fact' mixed with 'imagination or unrelated snippets of memories from previously observed scenarios'...such as someone's mind imprinting some facial-features seen on a science-fiction-movie onto the poorly remembered face of the object of the trauma.]....Having said all that,...I consider myself to be a fundamentally a simple and uncomplicated sort of chap, that feels that something as primeval and unscientific as 'Gut-Instinct' can, ..and should play a part in any discernibility of claims in such unusual cases such as this [all cases for that matter]...and in this case, mine screams out that both men are lying about the abduction!

I fully agree that the event or perception of could have possibly been a combination of a hallucination and some 'suggestive' discussions that happened in the 45 minutes sitting in the car that created a false memory.

I like gut instinct, and mine when listening and reading transcripts says the men are not lying. To the extent I would put my house up as a stake.....I do something on a professional level that requires me to ascertain whether someone is telling me the truth, based on both visual and audible information. I need to make this decision usually within 1 minute and have spent many years perfecting this art. At the same time I realise that I can be wrong but I am really convinced the men are not lying. Does this mean they were really abducted? no, there is plenty of scope for other explanations...hoax/lie is not an explanation I buy into though.

However, [yep, ..speculation time. ].... I do believe that it is pretty likely that Charlie and Calvin had a real close encounter with a real UFO that night. [Really close...maybe a couple of feet or so.] ..And there has been numerous cases of well-detailed close encounters of this kind that often come accompanied with the expression of the witness feeling a great sense of terror!...as though there was a real foreboding element to coming up-close to one of these things! [could there be an element of infrasound to these things?] And I'm sure that you are aware that the Pascagoula incident was pretty famous in itself, but the broader outlook is that it was only a small part of the great Ohio UFO Wave of 1973, and there were many interesting UFO reports at that time. [not just in the US , but Europe was buzzing as well]

...including this one that may well be relevant ...if true?...

this bolded part my friend is exaclty where I am at....UAP? maybe....ET? maybe....

thanks for the additional info.

...and according to a newspaper article on the 16th Oct, ..at least 12 other residents around the Pascagoula area reported "seeing a strange object in the sky at the time of the alleged abduction"

and...I don't know how reliable these statements on the Patrick Gross site are? ..but...

"On October 10, 1973, fifteen different people, including two policemen reported seeing a large, silver UFO slowly fly over a housing project in St. Tammany Parish, New Orleans, Louisiana. This was just one more UFO sighting, except that on the next day another event would reach national attention, ninety miles to the East.

As the men were still in the Sheriff's office, a former pilot called and stated he saw a UFO at about 08:00pm near the Pascagoula River. A city former city counsellor and several other people also reported later to report their sighting.

Three different people have phoned the Sheriff's office to report their observation of a strange blue light in the area where the two men were abducted. These people remained anonymous, they were driving on the Interstate 90 a few hundred yards from the abduction's location that night.

28 years later a witness comes forward, according to the newspaper "Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal" of October 21, 2001. It even seems reasonable to think that this witness is one of the three people in the car on Route 90 as mentioned above, this time the witness gave his name.

Two days after the events, a meteorologist of Columbia reported that he had a strange radar echo the same day: He first thought it was a plane, but started to winder about that when the echo remains stationary and his radar was completely jammed moments later.

There has been another possible independent confirmation: at 9:00pm after watching TV, Larry Booth of Pascagoula got up to check the front door prior to going to bed. He noticed a huge object with red revolving lights hovering 8-10 feet over the street lamp. He thought it was an experimental craft run out of the local military base."

dont forget Raymond Broadus, both he and Larry Booth mentioned above are listed as independent witnesses (to the light) in the military document. We also have the Sheriff who confirms (found in transcript) that they had numerous calls about a light in the sky, often described as a streaking flash.

...and interestingly enough, I have seen several references to Charles Hickson's having 'a couple of shots of whiskey before entering the police station, and also that "When the witnesses arrived at the station..Sheriff Fred Diamond ordered his deputies to give the men a breath analysis test".. but then haven't seen the results of that test. ...And then in this newspaper interview on the 16th, Sheriff Diamond declares that "Neither of them had been drinking" ...

http://ufor.asn.au/p..._Searchable.pdf

...so is it fair to say that the police were satisfied that the consumption of alcohol played no part in the story?...I think so.

...and of course it too may bare no relation to the case, but i'm sure that you will be aware that the equally famous Lawrence Coyne UFO/Helicopter incident occurred exactly one week after the Pascagoula incident. [maybe nothing, but noteworthyly-interesting to me at least.]

I have seen the Sheriffs own words regarding this part. He says that once Charlie came into the station the first thing he said was that he had had a drink, and did not try and hide this fact.

and no I didnt know the Coyne event was so close in terms of dates...interesting.

And finally as an interesting aside, [well to me anyway . lol.] I also wonder if the ruinous career making photograph that Police Chief Jeff Greenhaw took and presented as a genuine encounter six days later, and 350 miles away in Falkville Alabama was as a direct result of 'someone..?' reading/hearing about the robotic extraterrestrials in Pascagoula?

http://www.americanm...le-alabama-usa/

will have a look into this, cheers

Sorry to ramble on Quillius, and more apologies in case of duplicated information! [which happens when a lazy poster jumps in late on in the thread. ]

Cheers Buddy.

never a ramble mate, the more perspectives the better, and always appreciated when they are from both sides of the fence.

In summary though I have not seen any holes blown into this event yet. Psyche has (as you can imagine) gone at it and put it (and me) through its paces but I feel it still stands up.

I guess we will never prove anything either way with this case, al I can do is go with my own interpretation, and that is that the men were not lying and believed they had the experience they claimed to have had.

[scowl]

I fully agree that the event or perception of could have possibly been a combination of a hallucination and some 'suggestive' discussions that happened in the 45 minutes sitting in the car that created a false memory.

Here's something we can agree on.

Here are two words that UFOlogists hate to hear: "So what?"

So what if a couple of fishermen forty years ago claimed that they were abducted by extraterrestrials that looked like they had come out of a low budget Roger Corman sci-fi flick? Such creatures were never reported again for some reason which means it was a completely isolated event. It has not led to any new information or insight in the past forty years. The only thing it did was make two men famous and give them some extra income. It also helped popularize alien abductions so TV movies like "The UFO Incident" would get good ratings.

Whether or not people believe it happened makes no difference. It's a dead end either way.

[psyche101]

Gidday mate, yes indeed, very much needed at the moment....

Gidday

One of the theme parks here is doing a white Christmas with snow machines, I might have to get a look at that, never seen a white Christmas.

BTW, That S Radio was at the Miguel site, they seem to have lost the pictures, and accidentally (I hope) removed some text. It now says:

The chances are that the first two post-abduction experiences Hickson have been the work of his mind trying to eliminate uncertainty and, incidentally, find a positive way to their Original abduction. The third experience is more complex because it involves several members of his family.

's "radio", through which Charlie receives telepathic messages, seems to echo the need to understand their need to make sense of what happened in October 1973.

We can see here that clearly something has been deleted.

not sure what this corroborates to be honest. If we use the example of someone who has lost someone very close, then years later they suffer a breakdown and claim to see the person in question, one would not think the initial 'memory' that is creating the apparition is false, it just indicates that the mind is able to manifest memorys in various ways....especially years after

Nice analogy, like a ghost right?

And because the men had different post experiences, that can still mean they experienced, the same thing initially, well I do agree with that much, I do feel their experience may have been one and the same, however, as there is no obvious signs of insanity with Charlie as there is with Calvin, yet Charlie corroborates continued contact even if he does not state the religious message, but the more standard message of We Are Here To Help?

And does that Make Charlie more believable?

As the contact happened weeks after the event, January 1974 Charlie received his first message, which is still close enough to the initial event to be considered a part of it. IMHO. Parker admittedly had to wait 19 years for the next contact, but again, Charlie has to be aware of Calvin's new tale, yet we seem to see no comment from Charlie?

yes they are trained but it seems it was the story they told that raised that possibility coupled with Charlies admission to drinking. There is nothing to say that just by looking at the men the shriff arrived at said possibility. I think Charlie said he had the drink sitting int he car prior to contacting the sheriff, so Calvin would have seen him drink.

Yes, Charlie had a drink, right after the incident though if I remeber, which had to result on whiskey on his breath, and any trained officer ought to pick that up.

So if Charlie was telling the truth, they as professionals would be remiss not to suspect alcohol.

And then a few later that night to

Dun dun

Help him sleep.

I do feel that there is as much evidence that Charlie raped Calvin as there is for aliens.

Now why did the police not confiscate the Whiskey and test it as well? Could it have been spiked as a prank, could it have been spikes as a revenge? Or could it simply have had a bad fermentation process resulting in a mildly toxic substance resulting in sleep paralysis? It is not more far fetched than an alien spaceship surely? I remember discussing an idea that BIgfoot could be such an apparition at one time in the crypto session, and considered perhaps a type of undiscovered fungus with a narcotic spore release might be considered as the trigger. Stand on it and take a trip.

past experience of calming his own nerves maybe?, even though past experience is speculative in itself.

For sure considering he had a tipple later that night.

Sounds like he and Joe would have got along well!

yes, Calvins father trusted Charlie enough to send his son to be looked after by Charlie. Charlie got him a job and I would expect a close relationship...as a fatherly figure. I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

Yet after this they parted ways and Clavin moved away?

Do you know if they ever saw each other again?

he actually said something to help calm you down to enable you to sleep, rather than something that makes you sleep

I would be wary of giving a man a drink who had not drunk before. But I have seen many a short man drunk on Rum. No giant myself, but a happy drinker, not a violent one.

many of the sentences dont, we have to think about context, context being the intelligence of teh men, the timeframe, the trauma of the experience....all these factors would make anyone talk elements of jibberish and some sentences would not be cohesive....I would expect this and see it as supporting rather than opposing.

Quite honestly, I could not see if it was supporting or opposing, I thought it could go either way, the text is damming, and I accept the disclaimer that they were traumatized enough to be speaking gibberish, but really, if the trauma was indeed that great, how do we know how much was indeed gibberish? Here we have an example of nonsense, and to me many elements of the claim are preposterous, such as the size of the craft, which I know we disagree on, but to me is significant. As such, anything could have happened.

although Calvin would not have a memory of the light, the door opening, the beings etc

Going into an unconscious state is often accompanied by dreaming. Such as near death experiences.

I dont see how their belief would have a bearing, wouldnt angels seem more appropriate?

That is essentially what Calvins Aliens turned into after 19 years. Minus the wings is all.

I have a feeling he did, what about the other Doctor that I alluded to in an earlier post (from a link you provided)

Carl Sagan made fun of them on National TV I hear, and did not believe them for a second. But apparently Mack contributed to a show meant for tv called Into The Unknown, which I shall endeavour to attain a copy of. I think I have already found one, I will let you know how I go. Did you ever get a hold of and watch that Roswell movie? Wasn't bad actually for a movie made for TV. Much better that that insanely boring Travis Walton tripe, he has a new theory on his abduction I hear. Never let go the teats of that cash cow Travis!!!

But not everyone thought they were lying, I figured you might like this, not sure if you have seen it, not posted so far as far as I know:

I happened to be working for Ingalls Shipbuilding at the time of the UFO incident. My office was in the refurbished "port warehouse building" that was only a couple hundred yards from where Hickson and Parker were fishing. And one of my colleagues, Jerry Shaver, had gone to school with Hickson. According to Jerry, "Charlie Hickson is one of the finest men I've ever known. I promise you that he would never tell a lie."

LINK

Means little, but hey, nice sentiment to see Charlie to his final resting place.

Those Doctors say Calivin is just fine, no mental problems? Anyone can see that is not quite right?

Link - Sagans Comments. He had some comments about Coynes UFO too.

Sagan had been systematically picking holes in Capt. Coyne's account of how a UFO had pulled his Army helicopter up nearly 2,000 feet in altitude during his encounter, and Dr. Hynek came to Coyne's defense, saying "Altimeters don't hallucinate." To which Dr. Sagan replied, "I don't mean to attack Captain Coyne, but people who read altimeters hallucinate."

Edited November 14, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

I just struggle with anything Calvin says so many years after.

We can agree on the starting point of the trauma though, and you can see what I am saying, is it not very strange that the men would have such different reactions to the same event? I expect diversity, but Calvin really lost it. Charlie appears quite composed by comparison.

ignoring the sources which seem to all make things up as they go along, we shoul;d focus on Charlies actual words, and everytime I have listened to any recording he is constistant with size.

We have a verified transcript very close to the event which I feel is very valid, and almost every source has a different size, yet they had to get it from someplace, and that can only have been Charlie. I honestly have to wonder why every estimate is rounded down, none seem to be 30 foot by 30 foot, or more, they are all small. The articles do show consistency in this regard.

have you listened to the military interview? neither have I, however all other recording we have of Charlie, where we listened to his own voice, they are all consistant, so I argue that there is potentially an error in the transcript at best, or Charlie made an error under the

intense interrogation.....

Not sure about you, but I consider written information as more reliable than verbal. It's a very good idea to deploy this in business.

yes but the artist tries to capture the glow effect

He does, but as I say, the outline is very definite, and if the glow is exaggerated, that would make the craft appear even smaller to Charlie wouldn't it? I fe it is ridiculously small at best estimate.

Charlie talks of human like beings, he says the creatures were more robotic. Even though this comes at the future sighting. If we stick to timeframe then there is no need for a messanger of God, rendering the point moot

On the ship he only saw the Robots and Mechanical eye didn't he?

There is a need for the messenger of God - Reference to identify said humanoid being, whom I assume contacted Charlie telepathically, not literal - the ship needed a pilot, and it was designed for a being with a sense of direction, not the carrot heads who had no real front and back, but carrot like growths in 4 directions.

no need if we were in court during the time, however if in the future follwoing on from their 'elaborations' then I would call to the stand the 'non-robotic' beings Charlie mentions

Cannot be the pilot of the directional vehicle - not designed for them.

I think it would be good to see what Charlie said many years later once Calvin made his claims, I will see what I can find.

Best of luck to you, all I found was mountains of Charlie talking about the incident.

not at all. The fact they are worth $200 now indicates that few copies were sold, the initial copies are where the men would make money not future royalties on second hand value. They have no royalty on second hand sales. I guess an analogy/comparison would be a painter who many years ago sold a painting for a few $$ then 50 years later the painting is sold for millions........this does not indicate that the painter had a lucrative trade.

That is till a lucrative investment the way I see it. Time and paint made something very valuable. Not a lucrative income, I agree.

actually Charlie says in the early interviews/interrogations that he felt he was not under threat.

Not what the "secret" tapes indicate though.

CHARLIE: They won't believe it. They gonna believe it one of these days. Might be too late. I knew all along they was people from other worlds up there. I knew all along. I never thought it would happen to me.

Bolding mine.

The major contradictions you allude to only appear many years later when Calvin is 'dressing up' the story.

But seem to factor in to the initial account, such as the need for a pilot, which I would agree with scowl, does not seem to be dressing up so much as outright lying or perhaps correcting details.

[quillius]

[/size]

Here's something we can agree on.

[quillius]

Psyche,

will have to come back to you on some of your points as flat out today.

may potentially leave pascagoula alone for a few weeks as it requires too much time, and as Scowl has suggested, it will never really be to any firm conclusion I guess.

For me I would be happy to take this case to the stage of 'the men were not lying, and they had an encounter with something, be it a UFO or UAP etc etc (exlcude a BOW - bottle of whiskey) but whether they were abducted or not is another story

[1963]

Hello buddy, good to see you join in the debate. You are right in that I do really like this case. The bottom line for me is having read and listened to the various first hand testimony/interviews/secret recordings I am convinced that both men are not lying and that they believe they had an experience in line with what they claim.

To be honest I have yet to see the discrepencies that you mention, I feel these discrpencies only happen when we are talking about the various elaborations that happened many years later, also worth noting that these came after hypnosis, which in itself can create numerous issues. I have yet to see any discrepency (many journalists/debunkers have said there are many), there is only one I am aware of. This is during the military interrogation when Charlies is 'supposed' to have said 8ft x 8ft rather than 8ft x 8ft x 30ft. Is there any specific discrepency you can point me too?

Hi Quillius, sorry for the delayed response my friend. [but you know that there isn't enough hours in the day to do what you would really rather do.!]

...And I have to say that I am guilty of not boning-up on the case sufficiently before jumping in!....after your sterling defence of the 'early discrepancy-tally' I willingly concede that I hadn't previously studied the facts of this case closely enough, ..and unforgivably-relied on the easily available google-links to many inaccurate tellings of this tale!...But after a closer look at the event and timings of the much-publicised discrepancies in the pair's verbal descriptions of the 'bogeymen' etc, it is much easier to see that their initial report was pretty solid and a lot more believable than I first thought!..and I concur that their later embellishments must be considered as an unfortunate human trait, and as after-the-fact aberrations that should perhaps be discounted.

As to the 'size of the craft' anomaly...again this could quite possibly be a mere slip of the tongue, and isn't enough on it's own to halt the train!

I fully agree that the event or perception of could have possibly been a combination of a hallucination and some 'suggestive' discussions that happened in the 45 minutes sitting in the car that created a false memory.

Possibly!...?...I would have thought that a story this elaborate and well performed might just take a lot more time to formulate and become 'real' enough to endure the subsequent grillings?.

I like gut instinct, and mine when listening and reading transcripts says the men are not lying.

..Yes they do sound convincing!....but then we are both old enough to know that there are some very good liars in this world ...and that is where our discernment skills have no other option than to rely on our own personal gut instinct....and this seems to be the only area where we differ.

To the extent I would put my house up as a stake

Don't be silly....get a grip man!...but I get it, that your positive-gut-instinct is a whole lot stronger than mine in this case. lol.

.....I do something on a professional level that requires me to ascertain whether someone is telling me the truth, based on both visual and audible information. I need to make this decision usually within 1 minute and have spent many years perfecting this art.

mmm?..Are you Hercule Poirot?

At the same time I realise that I can be wrong but I am really convinced the men are not lying. Does this mean they were really abducted? no, there is plenty of scope for other explanations...hoax/lie is not an explanation I buy into though.

As I said previously....I am still of the opinion that the two of them 'probably' did have a shockingly-close encounter with an unknown craft,...but are guilty of an almighty 'Embellishment! [which I suppose means that I cannot object to the term hoax/liar!] ..so that's another minor thing that we don't agree on.

this bolded part my friend is exaclty where I am at....UAP? maybe....ET? maybe....

Granted Quillius...but you know me.....UAP? maybe.....ET? quite possible....

I have seen the Sheriffs own words regarding this part. He says that once Charlie came into the station the first thing he said was that he had had a drink, and did not try and hide this fact.

Yep, that was the point I was ham-fistedly trying to make. ..alcohol was not the fuel for this perplexing tale.

In summary though I have not seen any holes blown into this event yet. Psyche has (as you can imagine) gone at it and put it (and me) through its paces but I feel it still stands up.

Yes it's a good one, and I too have yet to see the real 'case-killer' ...but still have doubts.

I guess we will never prove anything either way with this case, al I can do is go with my own interpretation, and that is that the men were not lying and believed they had the experience they claimed to have had.

Of course you must follow your own impressions on this case, ..and any other for that matter.!..And I know that there are many other cases and testimonies that we will not agree upon...but then that is the beauty of civilised discussion, and is why it is always a great pleasure to ruminate the possibility of validity in these matters with you my friend!

...Anyway,...just as a postscript to this post, I thought that I had found a bit of supporting data for the case earlier, ...when I came across a little fact that I hadn't heard before.

It was that there was a little known mysterious event that occurred on the same day in many states of the US that looked a dead cert to be connected to a whole spate of UFO sightings , including the Hickson/Parker episode.

"....It's that on October 11, 1973 a very loud “sonic type boom” was heard across a several state area from Ohio and progressed eastward to the East Coast. The sound was first reported at 8:41 PM in Ohio and later at 8:53 PM in Pennsylvania. This incident researched extensively at the time by Irene Scott (MUFON

Board Member). Contacts with NASA and the Air Force ruled out a squadron of jets or a meteor. Ironically after the boom an unusually high number of UFO reports occurred. For example on October 17, 1973 Franklin County, Ohio law enforcement officials received a record 150 UFO reports and officials in Wheeling, West Virginia received 100 reports.

The Hickson – Parker abduction occurred on the same day as the “big boom” occurred across the midwest and eastern U.S. As a matter of fact the time even lines up. The Hickson – Parker encounter occurred around 9 PM Central Time. The loud boom occurred between 8:41 PM and 8:53 PM Eastern Time (7:41 PM and 7:53 PM Central Time). Is this a coincidence? Did something enter our atmosphere that resulted in the Hickson – Parker encounter and a wave of other UFO sightings? Is this a coincidence?

..from here....

http://www.ufosnw.co...ar2011pp6-7.pdf

...and....

http://www.ufosnw.co...istory-of-ufos/

....but then, with a little further research I found this...

http://www.ufosnw.co...1973ufowave.htm

• 11 Oct 1973
  
  • 
    SR-71A #979 Flown to Griffis AFB, NY for "Giant Reach" ops,USAF Pilot/ RSO: James Shelton/ Gary Coleman (BB)
    

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

....so it proved to be a fruitless lead!

....but imo, still interesting ! [to me at least!]

Cheers Buddy.

[scowl]

UFO explained, produced in 1975. Cant remember page number but there is around 20 pages about Pascagoula. I just think its interesting that Klass claims to have heard this from two different people and yet never attacked this claim himself. I havent the info you ask but I will keep searching.

OK I found my vintage copy of "UFOs Explained" in a box full of books on MS-DOS. Let me sum up the 20 pages here.

Klass says that the "abduction" (his use of quotes) is not as detailed nor interesting as Barney and Betty Hill or the abduction of Brazilian farmer Antonio Villas-Boas. The location where they were fishing is just a few blocks east from downtown Pascagoula and just a few hundred feet from busy highway 90 into town -- hardly a remote location -- yet no one saw anything.

In his first interview with the tabloid The National Taddler, Hickson said that the craft was ten feet wide and eight feet high. I guess that seemed a bit small because he later said on the Cavett show that it was "around twenty feet long, the overall [sic] of it". The craft grew even more on the Mike Douglas Show a few weeks later when Hickson said it was "twenty to thirty feet long". In his first interview with an investigator he said that it was "sixteen to eighteen feet long".

He told the sheriff that they had been fishing at 7PM. On the Dick Cavett show he changed that to "between 8PM and 9PM." On the Mike Douglas Show he decided that they had actually started fishing "around nine o'clock".

Klass points out that Hickson didn't mention his "severe eye injury" to the sheriff or the investigators or the doctors at Keesler Air Force Base who examined him, or to anyone on the Dick Cavett Show. He kept that exciting detail for his appearance on the Mike Douglas Show months later. He then said his vision was affected "for about three days". When I took a carbon arc flash to my face back in the 1980's, it cleared up in about a day and a half so this was not something he would have slipped his mind if it had actually happened.

On the Dick Cavett Show when asked if he had heard anything resembling speech, Hickson replied "no". Later on when Cavett asked if the creatures tried to communicate with him, Hickson said "I did hear some mumbling, some type of mumbling from one of the things."

Hickson and Parker spent an hour or two hours or three hours (depending on which version you believe) in Hickson's car drinking and deciding what to do. They ruled out going to the hospital despite Parker losing consciousness and Hickson's supposedly damaged vision. They ruled out going to the authorities to warn the public that aliens were abducting people. They did the right and logical thing: at 11PM they went straight to the local newspaper.

Unfortunately it was closed. So then they decided to do the second best thing and call the sheriff who sent a deputy to pick them up. Hickson said later that he had asked "not to let it out to the news" which is odd since they had already attempted to contact the local newspaper. Instead Sheriff Fred Diamond said Hickson had told him to contact the media.

There are some pages explaining how unreliable polygraphs are. Most people understand that now but back the 1970's we called them "lie detectors" because most people thought they could read your mind. Klass explains that the results of a polygraph are open to interpretation by the operator. We now know that they are useless for verifying the details of traumatic memories.

It looks like Hickson went through some trouble to find the least experienced polygraph operator he could find. The operator's full name wasn't even disclosed ("Scott G.") and the test took place in New Orleans (over one hundred miles from Pascagoula) just before Hickson appeared on the Dick Cavett Show. It turned out the operator was not certified and was only on a one-year internship. There were several certified polygraph operators in Mobile, just thirty miles from Pascagoula.

Klass talked to Joseph Colingo, the attorney/publicist that Hickson and Parker had hired, about the polygraph. He caught him in several lies about the experience of the operator and the length of the tests performed. Colingo claimed that polygraph operators in Mobile "refused" to do the polygraph because Colingo demanded they do the test for free, supposedly to prevent biasing the results. However when Klass called Jack N. Wood, one of the certified polygraph operators in Mobile, he claimed that he had never been contacted by Colingo. Another certified polygraph operator, Frank Schottgen, he also claimed that he had never been contacted by Colingo. Colingo did however contact the polygraphist of the Mobile police department, Captain Charles Wimberly. When Wimberly explained that a proper polygraph test would have to be done in the Mobile police department offices, Colingo declined and never called again.

Colingo had reason to be worried about the polygraph. Five days after the alleged abduction had hit the media, a taxi driver in Gulfport, Mississippi reported that he had had an encounter with a strange looking creature at 3AM. Since the region was in a panic over UFOs, the chief of police in Gulfport felt obligated to verify the truth of this new story so he sent the witness to a certified polygraph examiner in Jackson. The witness completely flunked it and later admitted he had made the story up because he had fallen asleep on the job.

Interestingly, at that time Mississippi law required that polygraph operators be certified to practice in the state. Louisiana did not have a similar law and that's how Hickson was tested by an intern.

All this polygraph business leads to the mystery of Parker's supposed "nervous breakdown" (again, Klass's use of quotes) and hospitalization. That came from Hickson when people on the Cavett show asked why Parker wasn't tested. Colingo of course said this was correct however absolutely no details were released about Parker's hospitalization or when it happened or what hospital he was admitted to. Parker has never admitted to any kind of nervous breakdown or hospitalization. Parker had "recovered" (once again, Klass's use of quotes) well enough to appear on the Mike Douglas Show aired on December 31st and didn't seem stressed at all.

In a Rolling Stone article published on January 17,1974, reporter Joe Eszterhas claimed that Colingo was already telling him that if the story could be verified that he could make million dollars from it with an Exclusive Story, a book deal and subsequent movie rights. He had already complained to Klass that he wasn't making any money from it so far.

Klass concludes the chapter with a "so what?" explanation. Since there is no evidence, there is no way to prove the story is true. If the abduction is proved beyond all doubt to be a complete hoax, it makes no difference because yet more people will claim to have been abducted by other amazing space creatures and everyone will have forgotten about how they had been fooled by Hickson and Parker and the attorney they had hired.

Yes but at the Ingalls shipping yard teh plant went from strength to strength, with immnese growth, this was not seasonal by any stretch of the imagination

Let's get some facts straight. Hickson was fired from the large Ingalls Shipyards on November 20, 1972 for "conduct unbecoming a supervisor". It came out in the Rolling Stone article that he had been handing out promotions to employees who were loaning him money. He was able to get a lower paying job at the smaller Walker Shipyard. This is not the Arnold V. Walker Shipyard that had been purchased by Ingalls, but another yard owned by a relative of Arnold Walker. The lower paying job wasn't enough to keep Hickson from filing for bankruptcy on July 6, 1973, just a few months before the alleged abduction.

[psyche101]

The sonic boom from the Blackbird was but one, if it was attributed to the Pascagoula event, why only one boom?

Or just FTB's putting 2 and 2 together to make 5?

Edited November 20, 2013 by psyche101