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Thought experiment..

thought experiment discussion consciousness mind evolution

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#16    StarMountainKid

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:15 PM

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

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#17    spacecowboy342

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 16 October 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.
Excellent point. Also I think it illustrates the evolutionary idea that species change over time when isolated from each other as different cultures were in the past. Today with the internet that isolation is much less and I think we are starting to see more of a synthesis with the melding of different points of view.


#18    White Crane Feather

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 16 October 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:



I'd like to hear more of your line in this..

A super organism, super thought, super idea sounds similar to how I perceive certain organizations too.. I tend to theorize that any Ideas that requires it's thinkers to think a certain way or uphold certain Ideas would be a powerful controlling entity in the landscape of the mind. Powerful enough to consume or assimilate any or all other entities that get in it's way. These Super's would also completely control certain people in every aspect of their lives to peoples own detriment without them even realizing it..

Some popular religions are an example of this, so too is Scientific method.. yep, scientific method is an Idea demanding that it is upheld. It demands that new knowledge is gained by it's Methods alone, and if the method isn't adhered too, the knowledge is false and not accepted, even if the knowledge is actually true..

Edited to add: Is hard to judge whether all the supers are detrimental.. most certainly appear to be.
Indeed. An ant colony is considered a super organism. The individual is simply a peice of the whole not really a separate organism capable of persuing its own interests or even reproduction. The colony itself satisfies all the definitions for a living entity whike the individual does not.

A religion is a super organism. It consumes, reacts, and reproduces. If you attack it it will defend itself and it evolves according to selective influences. So do other institutions. Life does not have to be organic. DNA is but information.

Detrimental or beneficial? I don't think it matters. It's nature. It's how live evolves. Super organisms are highly efficient. Ants are extremely successful over the entire earth. It's also about information and with the speed and scope of what is happening with technology there is a super organism wakeing up on earth. If individuality is written into the DNA of this thing and i think it is because indeed without its'  emergence could not have occurred it might be ok. I hope so I have no interest in being part of a Borg like entity. In some ways if humanity is going to survive itself it will have to come together in a higher form of consciousness.

I have long wondered if life on earth is simply an embro preparing to be born as a much higher being. God could simply have been our parent. It seems fantastic and Star Trek like, but if we actually do reach a technological singularity we will indeed become a super organism that then will reproduce by seeding other planets. Time will tell.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#19    SpiritWriter

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 15 October 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Thought experiment..

Taking thoughts and our own consciousness out to examine them, there seem to be parallels with evolution and natural selection in the natural world.. A giraffe develops a long neck in order to reach the inaccessible in it's evolution, an ant eater does basically the same by developing a long nose. Natural selection dictates that in times of hardship it was the long necked giraffes and anteaters that survived to perpetuate their species, whereas the shorter were less adaptive and so died out leaving behind the animals we see today.

Our minds, and the development of our own consciousness seems to follow the same path. Minds reach for the inaccessible in fields of knowledge and understanding in basically anything the mind's attention is put to, and minds also suffer times of hardship where old thoughts and ideas die off leaving behind room for the new thoughts and paradigms we know today.. The big difference is, the evolution of the individual mind can be very quick, day's weeks, years, certainly not the centuries and millenniums that the natural world takes to change..

In short, the Mind is a world not unlike the natural world. Thoughts and ideas are the nature that roam it's forests and prairies and oceans. Thoughts and ideas are the predator, the prey and the evolutionary winners and losers... Thoughts and ideas are the hunter and the hunted.. Our exchanges in thoughts and Ideas, therefore, can be likened to sending visitors from your world into another world that can be either harmful or benign, attacking the species already there, planting seeds or eggs of noxious weed or breed, or assimilating into the mind to help it grow and and mature like a garden.

Thoughts?


T, I only read the first paragraph when I posted. I don't know why I do that sometimes. Now if I would have been still and said, read the whole post and then respond, or wait and come back when you have time then I would have probably answered the true question you were after rather than something else, but i do think you should watch that video...

Tallest Baby in Seattle:
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=0MLv2KPA_jg

Or maybe I like responding to things even when i dont need to. Lets talk about the mind.

Yes i agree with you. Our subconcious mind uses what it does to maintain its lifeform in ways we dont understand, our semi unconcious brain is our ego or flesh going after what it wants and this is connected also to a natural state, our desires are also our loves. Our concious mind differentiates between our lusts, our loves and our need to survive (and probably some other stuff too).

Say the branches of those categories are attracted to where the go rather than try a little here and there and see what works for you.

Or all those branches get cut off when they reach a fail or they merge into other ones as they go up the line.

I kind of get what your saying.

I know it probably sounds like im not making any sense lol but I tried... I dont have time to edit peace all.


:)





Edited by SpiritWriter, 16 October 2013 - 06:09 PM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#20    Professor T

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:41 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 16 October 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

I disagree in that with the scientific method if knowledge is found to be false it is abandoned and new understanding sought

I think your right, I think I may have written that wrong, and do have a gap in knowledge here..

My understanding is that scientific method tends to denounce new knowledge if it doesn't meet it's set criteria. Scientific Method insists that new knowledge is challenged, again, and again, and again, and.... Half the time great discoveries are only accepted as truths when those who challenge these Idea's die of old age.

Edited by Professor T, 16 October 2013 - 09:41 PM.


#21    spacecowboy342

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:51 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 16 October 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

I think your right, I think I may have written that wrong, and do have a gap in knowledge here..

My understanding is that scientific method tends to denounce new knowledge if it doesn't meet it's set criteria. Scientific Method insists that new knowledge is challenged, again, and again, and again, and.... Half the time great discoveries are only accepted as truths when those who challenge these Idea's die of old age.
It is true that any new idea is challenged and must at least have the possibility of being disproved to be excepted. But if an old idea can be shown to not explain new data I don't think any who follow this method cling to them. It can be tough for new ideas to be accepted though when there is no clear data available. This can be both a strength and a weakness to the method. Overall though I think the scientific method is the best in that it doesn't try to cling to old dogma in the face of new data


#22    bLu3 de 3n3rgy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:35 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 16 October 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

Would go as far to say that it is a gender thing as well. It is the masculine that seeks to conquer nature, to pillage, to set out to colonise and destroy so they can rebuild in their mark and control. That, through out patriarchal history is the male issue not the feminine, the feminine wants to nurture and protect nature and understands innately through the connection of her own body the cycles of nature.

The other thing that is horrendously frighting and immature about human nature is mob mentality - the individual bypassing their sense of normal/own moral and decency for the group mentality, which leads to bullying, violence, murder, chaos and acts of cruelty.  Who really is in control then of consciousness?   Some research i have read says that when people are involved in hurting others/nature via mob mentality they do not feel the same level of remorse, conscience or guilt for their actions. It is as if the whole aspect of agency is threatened when a group consciousness is formed.

If the thought level is ahead of our material physical level in terms of 'speed of consciousness', then these creations are existing first as thought forms or super entities, before they materialise on our physical level. Certainly what can be seen during astral projection can support this.

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#23    Professor T

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:17 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 16 October 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

All very interesting posts. I think another example of evolution of mind is, different societies have evolved different paradigms or concepts of thought patterns. For instance, Western Platonic ideals and philosophy are different from Eastern or oriental organic ideals and philosophy.

I think in the West we consider ourselves separate from nature and we want to conquer nature, in the East we would consider ourselves as a co-existent element of nature and we would strive to live in harmony within the natural world. Different evolutionary directions of mind.

Great thinking..

View Postspacecowboy342, on 16 October 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Excellent point. Also I think it illustrates the evolutionary idea that species change over time when isolated from each other as different cultures were in the past. Today with the internet that isolation is much less and I think we are starting to see more of a synthesis with the melding of different points of view.

Awesome...

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 16 October 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

Indeed. An ant colony is considered a super organism. The individual is simply a peice of the whole not really a separate organism capable of persuing its own interests or even reproduction. The colony itself satisfies all the definitions for a living entity whike the individual does not.

A religion is a super organism. It consumes, reacts, and reproduces. If you attack it it will defend itself and it evolves according to selective influences. So do other institutions. Life does not have to be organic. DNA is but information.

Detrimental or beneficial? I don't think it matters. It's nature. It's how live evolves. Super organisms are highly efficient. Ants are extremely successful over the entire earth. It's also about information and with the speed and scope of what is happening with technology there is a super organism wakeing up on earth. If individuality is written into the DNA of this thing and i think it is because indeed without its'  emergence could not have occurred it might be ok. I hope so I have no interest in being part of a Borg like entity. In some ways if humanity is going to survive itself it will have to come together in a higher form of consciousness.

I have long wondered if life on earth is simply an embro preparing to be born as a much higher being. God could simply have been our parent. It seems fantastic and Star Trek like, but if we actually do reach a technological singularity we will indeed become a super organism that then will reproduce by seeding other planets. Time will tell.

Awesome...
I see this every day in the company I work for.. Those who accept the company  thoughts and ideologies are rewarded, those who don't are neglected.. In many ways our Job's, what we do, who we work for and what we believe is nothing but a mind game played out by the Supers who are vying for control. The company line (idea's and Ideologies) more often than not serve the Super, or a select few.. Those that don't serve that collective are weeded out.

But certain thought's and Ideas are worth resisting..  Especially when they clash with existing ideologies.. Analogically speaking, it's the equivalent of our world being attacked by a hostile species, or species that we don't truly understand.. Border security get's it's in on the action..

As far as the evolution of the mind scape goes, that is IMO working at a very fast pace, much faster if we let it.  It can be manipulated and guided by one's individual desires. Allowing certain thoughts to take hold and grow. Learning to manipulate and guide our own minds like gardeners is the first step towards weeding out undesirable thought entities. I tend to think that detrimental or beneficial entities can be guided, manipulated, destroyed or farmed to maximize the evolution of the mind. I don't think that detrimental or beneficial doesn't matter in nature, I think nature is a more balanced approach. It's cognition that allows us to understand that we can manipulate towards desired results with a bit of fertilizer here, a selective breeding program there...

Using gardens as an analogy, Most minds are probably overgrown with weeds.. Those with Super Entities have gardens designed to serve fruits almost exclusively to the  Super. Those who understand that "hey, my mind is my garden!" are more likely to weed where they want, plant what they want, and awaken to the fact that they are the gardener of their thoughts, and not as many believe "I think, therefore I am".

Yeah, it's easy to see the whole Borg mentality playing it's self out on the world stage.. "Resistance is futile" is an idea worthy of weeding..


#24    StarMountainKid

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

Professor T you're garden analogy is excellent. It's not always easy to pull those damn weeds, though. But in another sense, weeds play an important role in that their contrast with the flowers enable us to see the flowers more clearly.

For instance, which is more beautiful, a full moon in a clear sky, or a full moon with clouds drifting before it?

The acceptance of authority does not lead to intelligence.
A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#25    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:56 PM

80% of weeds are actually edible plants. I don't pull them. I intergrade them into my salads or juice them in my juicer for the Nutrients they provide. Just saying.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#26    bLu3 de 3n3rgy

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:44 PM

View Post_Only, on 16 October 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

He just left out an important cousin to thoughts and ideas in the 'world' of the mind; emotions. I am sure they would be one of the most powerful forces. I think an emotional evolution is just as.. no, more important, than intelligence.

View PostProfessor T, on 16 October 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

Thanks..

emotions....... hmmmmm........

I tend to think that ideas and thoughts have no emotion of themselves.. Emotions are a physical attribute.
We do tend to attach emotions to certain thoughts and Ideas, but that is done from our ego 3-d Physical existence, and are not born of thoughts or Ideas. Yes, most people are born with a standard set of emotions, but we learn to attach emotions to certain thoughts, ideas, and the actions and consequences throughout life teach us to attach certain emotions to certain thoughts and ideas...

You guys are bringing up empathy V reason.  I would agree with Only that an emotional revolution is needed, So that more people evolve to develop empathy which is attached to a higher body of mind/consciousness.  ( not the clinical definition of empathy, the psychic ability definition of empathy which is the basis for other abilities, telepathy etc.)

Emotions = energy  and can indeed be powerful, emotions are not something that are just based in physicality, they transmit and give form to things beyond our physical level.  The energy shaped by emotions can be so incredibly destructive or so incredibly healing. Something might start out as just a thought or reason, but emotion is the cup, the force that shapes it, leading to more awareness and then will to enable it. Emotions are a gateway that can used or misused. But to control emotion or stem a thought before it materialises an emotion, you can stop any thought by being aware of your thoughts.

A bit like the gender theme, reason (mascu) empathy (feminine) needs to become more integrated instead of being 2 forces. Left brain, right brain needs to be whole brain and whole minded.

Whitecrane - nice example.

The Astral Projection Techniques Thread Here
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#27    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostbLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 17 October 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:





You guys are bringing up empathy V reason.  I would agree with Only that an emotional revolution is needed, So that more people evolve to develop empathy which is attached to a higher body of mind/consciousness.  ( not the clinical definition of empathy, the psychic ability definition of empathy which is the basis for other abilities, telepathy etc.)

Emotions = energy  and can indeed be powerful, emotions are not something that are just based in physicality, they transmit and give form to things beyond our physical level.  The energy shaped by emotions can be so incredibly destructive or so incredibly healing. Something might start out as just a thought or reason, but emotion is the cup, the force that shapes it, leading to more awareness and then will to enable it. Emotions are a gateway that can used or misused. But to control emotion or stem a thought before it materialises an emotion, you can stop any thought by being aware of your thoughts.

A bit like the gender theme, reason (mascu) empathy (feminine) needs to become more integrated instead of being 2 forces. Left brain, right brain needs to be whole brain and whole minded.

Whitecrane - nice example.
I'm wasn't sure if anyone got that :), but its the truth... I actually do that.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 17 October 2013 - 07:40 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#28    Professor T

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 17 October 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Professor T you're garden analogy is excellent. It's not always easy to pull those damn weeds, though. But in another sense, weeds play an important role in that their contrast with the flowers enable us to see the flowers more clearly.

For instance, which is more beautiful, a full moon in a clear sky, or a full moon with clouds drifting before it?

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 17 October 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

80% of weeds are actually edible plants. I don't pull them. I intergrade them into my salads or juice them in my juicer for the Nutrients they provide. Just saying.
Funnily enough, your both describing my garden as it is at the moment..
I haven't pulled the weeds for a few months, and ironically the garden looks nice, rambling, the contrasts are pleasing to the eye..
It's when the weeds start to take over that something needs to be done about it to restore a healthy balance.

I guess the same is true of thoughts and ideas in the mindscape.. One can delve deep into clusters of thoughts and Ideas and get a bit carried away propagating till it reaches a point where they become weeds.. When one becomes too one-tracked, dogmatic or one eyed about certain ideologies they fail to see the forest through the trees, and contrast is lost..

I saw a slug yesterday, damn it was huge, biggest I've ever seen. I guess it's healthy size is a testament to a healthy ecosystem.. :whistle:  makes one wonder what else occurs in the mindscape..


#29    Professor T

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostbLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 17 October 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

You guys are bringing up empathy V reason.  I would agree with Only that an emotional revolution is needed, So that more people evolve to develop empathy which is attached to a higher body of mind/consciousness.  ( not the clinical definition of empathy, the psychic ability definition of empathy which is the basis for other abilities, telepathy etc.)

Emotions = energy  and can indeed be powerful, emotions are not something that are just based in physicality, they transmit and give form to things beyond our physical level.  The energy shaped by emotions can be so incredibly destructive or so incredibly healing. Something might start out as just a thought or reason, but emotion is the cup, the force that shapes it, leading to more awareness and then will to enable it. Emotions are a gateway that can used or misused. But to control emotion or stem a thought before it materialises an emotion, you can stop any thought by being aware of your thoughts.

A bit like the gender theme, reason (mascu) empathy (feminine) needs to become more integrated instead of being 2 forces. Left brain, right brain needs to be whole brain and whole minded.

Whitecrane - nice example.

Yeah, you are probably right..
I'm approaching this thought experiment from the left, and as a result of this action I've put the blinkers on the right so limiting my perception..

Empathy is often a shortcoming with me, even with identifying it..

Idea's are held by emotion.... Sponsored by emotion?... :unsure2:  I need to go away and think about this..


#30    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

View PostbLu3 de 3n3rgy, on 16 October 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

The other thing that is horrendously frighting and immature about human nature is mob mentality - the individual bypassing their sense of normal/own moral and decency for the group mentality, which leads to bullying, violence, murder, chaos and acts of cruelty.  Who really is in control then of consciousness?   Some research i have read says that when people are involved in hurting others/nature via mob mentality they do not feel the same level of remorse, conscience or guilt for their actions. It is as if the whole aspect of agency is threatened when a group consciousness is formed.

How often do thoughts drive a sponsoring energy?
Isn't it usually a case of energy being the driving force?
The reason why I ask is White's recent blog.. There seems to be some answers there..






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