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#106    docyabut2

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:31 AM

No wonder Jesus said one wife, he proberly knew all the sexual diseases people would get that could kill, pure hell:0)


#107    scowl

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 October 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

What did she think about divorce being a sin in God's eyes?

She said that Jesus forgives all sins so no problem there. Better to sin four times than every weekend, right Jesus?


#108    scowl

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 October 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Or are people just selfish. When they no longer get what they want they move on to a better booty call.

What I've seen with the few divorces I've witnessed were not "booty call" situations in any way. In fact I don't know of a single married person who has cheated!  I'd lean towards "selfish". In most of them one person changed or more likely became the person they actually are. From what I've seen, people are great at hiding flaws and acting on their best behavior before marriage. Some time after they're married, their true nature comes out.

Some divorces I know:

One woman loved to hike and camp and climb mountains and found a guy who also loved doing these things. About a year after they married, he decided that sitting in front of the TV every weekend was more fun. When she convinced him to go camping, he went out of his way to make the experience miserable.

Another woman divorced her husband after he decided that working sucked. Since she was bringing home the bacon he felt everything was fine. Every time I went over there he was playing video games like a teenager. When she suggested divorce, he emptied out their joint accounts and spent all the money.

Another woman married a really nice guy. They were a fun couple and we did lots of things together. Unfortunately five years later he discovered cocaine and never came home again.

A coworker married a woman who developed a spending addiction. She was running them into bankruptcy and there was nothing he could do about it but divorce her. This was a tough situation because we all think she's a sweet person who just doesn't know how money works.

"Sexualization of our culture"? Bah. People have learned how to act like angels before marriage then feel they can act like selfish jerks after the honeymoon. These people didn't believe marriage is a partnership.

Of course this was less of a problem when the wife just did everything her husband told her to.


#109    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:28 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 October 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Are 60% of relationships in America harmful and destructive?

Or are people just selfish. When they no longer get what they want they move on to a better booty call.
Well I'm sure every red blooded male is tempted by  a better booty  :whistle:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

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#110    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 29 October 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

No wonder Jesus said one wife, he proberly knew all the sexual diseases people would get that could kill, pure hell:0)
Or he was being very considerate of men. One wife is more than most men can handle, except in societies where women are very subordinate to men, and even there it can be a problem.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#111    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postscowl, on 29 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:


Of course this was less of a problem when the wife just did everything her husband told her to.

Also works where the husband does everything the wife tells him. :devil:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#112    Paranoid Android

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:39 AM

View Postscowl, on 29 October 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:



She said that Jesus forgives all sins so no problem there. Better to sin four times than every weekend, right Jesus?
She has a very warped view of sin. Not at all biblical.


View Postscowl, on 29 October 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:



What I've seen with the few divorces I've witnessed were not "booty call" situations in any way. In fact I don't know of a single married person who has cheated!  I'd lean towards "selfish". In most of them one person changed or more likely became the person they actually are. From what I've seen, people are great at hiding flaws and acting on their best behavior before marriage. Some time after they're married, their true nature comes out.

Some divorces I know:

One woman loved to hike and camp and climb mountains and found a guy who also loved doing these things. About a year after they married, he decided that sitting in front of the TV every weekend was more fun. When she convinced him to go camping, he went out of his way to make the experience miserable.

Another woman divorced her husband after he decided that working sucked. Since she was bringing home the bacon he felt everything was fine. Every time I went over there he was playing video games like a teenager. When she suggested divorce, he emptied out their joint accounts and spent all the money.

Another woman married a really nice guy. They were a fun couple and we did lots of things together. Unfortunately five years later he discovered cocaine and never came home again.

A coworker married a woman who developed a spending addiction. She was running them into bankruptcy and there was nothing he could do about it but divorce her. This was a tough situation because we all think she's a sweet person who just doesn't know how money works.

"Sexualization of our culture"? Bah. People have learned how to act like angels before marriage then feel they can act like selfish jerks after the honeymoon. These people didn't believe marriage is a partnership.

Of course this was less of a problem when the wife just did everything her husband told her to.
My comment about booty calls was a tad flippant, I admit. And perhaps I'm oversimplifying by laying all the blame on the sexualisation of society. I should have said that the sexualisation of society is one component in a wider problem. Our society is becoming ever more "me" focused. The "Just Do It" generation. Everything is geared towards what makes you feel good. The sexualisation of society is one component of that, with focus on instant gratification. When it comes to marriage a similarly selfish attitude is helpful only as long as the other person makes you feel good. The moment that changes, you no longer get what you want out of it, they move on to new things. Marriage, as you say, is a partnership. With the examples you gave, with the possible exception of the dude on cocaine (drugs can change people) all of those examples were issues that could be dealt with if they weren't stuck in the me-generation mentality.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that everything would be peachy, or that in some cases the end result may still be divorce. But I daresay if people begin a marriage with an other-person focus rather than the self, divorce rates would ever so quickly fall.

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#113    scowl

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:16 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 30 October 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

She has a very warped view of sin. Not at all biblical.

No, Jesus forgives sins. It's in the New Testament. Four sins is better than a hundred sins.

Quote

My comment about booty calls was a tad flippant, I admit. And perhaps I'm oversimplifying by laying all the blame on the sexualisation of society. I should have said that the sexualisation of society is one component in a wider problem. Our society is becoming ever more "me" focused. The "Just Do It" generation. Everything is geared towards what makes you feel good. The sexualisation of society is one component of that, with focus on instant gratification.

People have been saying that about every generation since the 1900's, maybe even before that. I think it's some kind of flaw in human perception. We can't help but think the next generation must be inferior to ours.

Quote

When it comes to marriage a similarly selfish attitude is helpful only as long as the other person makes you feel good. The moment that changes, you no longer get what you want out of it, they move on to new things. Marriage, as you say, is a partnership. With the examples you gave, with the possible exception of the dude on cocaine (drugs can change people) all of those examples were issues that could be dealt with if they weren't stuck in the me-generation mentality.

I personally don't think it's this "me generation" stuff since that has always existed. If anything is happening, I think people are getting better and better at manipulating other people by playing "roles" and as a result, people's expectations are unrealistically high. People are less likely to start a relationship based on honesty since admitting your flaws reduces your apparent worth.  Men and women have learned to "sell themselves" like products, glossing over their flaws, exaggerating if not falsifying their appealing qualities and predicting rosy futures together.

President Harry Truman proposed to his wife asking if she'd be happy with a husband who would probably be a farmer for the rest of his life. Do you think that would work today?

We used to have books on how to pick up women in bars. I think those techniques have expanded into how to get someone to marry you. All these people I mentioned shouldn't have gotten married because they quickly became "different" after they got married. The people I know in these divorces all say that their spouse "changed". I'm cynical. I think they were frauds from the very first date.

Maybe that's because I didn't mention the con-artist who was a complete fraud. He claimed to have degrees in physics even though he was working in a book store. I was suspicious of him the moment I met him. He barely understood Newton's Laws but shrugged off my Physics 101 questions as insulting. Of course my friend who was going out with him thought he was a genius. Why wasn't this guy using his brilliance to make a living? "Politics, man! ****ing politics!" Yep, the whole scientific industry was keeping him down! We begged our friend not to marry this shyster but she was smitten by him. He was very charming.

She got suspicious when the newly married couple would visit people's houses and their friends claimed valuables were missing afterwards. We finally convinced her to make some phone calls and she found he didn't have the degrees he claimed. A background check showed that they only time he used Newton's Laws was on car ignitions and people's back doors. Once the jig was up, he ran off with another woman and the marriage was annulled.


#114    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:27 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 30 October 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

Our society is becoming ever more "me" focused. The "Just Do It" generation. Everything is geared towards what makes you feel good.

Isn't that largely why you go to church and live your religious beliefs, because it feels good?  What makes your particular 'me' focus better than the 'Just Do It' generation's?

Quote

With the examples you gave, with the possible exception of the dude on cocaine (drugs can change people) all of those examples were issues that could be dealt with if they weren't stuck in the me-generation mentality.

What generation has not been a 'me-generation', what era, and what was different?

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#115    Mr Walker

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:14 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 October 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Isn't that largely why you go to church and live your religious beliefs, because it feels good?  What makes your particular 'me' focus better than the 'Just Do It' generation's?



What generation has not been a 'me-generation', what era, and what was different?

Because it is more productive for individuals but especially for the society in which an individual lives . Ancient romans greeks and egyptian educated classes were taught to honorr family, to be honest, to serve, to be dutiful etc  And to put family city and state before self.

My generation, along with those of my parents and grandparents were taught the same.Toto serve to obey to be a productive part of family and society. Sure we were encouraged to advance ourselves, but only because a educated and skilled person has more to offer to others and to their society.
I am sure not every person of those generations learned the same thing, especially in some parts of the western world but enough did to shape society, just as the lack of those principles is shaping modern society, even though many individuals stick to them. There have always been cheats, power seekers, con artists and selfish people, but today such behaviour and principles are encouraged by mainstream attitudes and values, and by laws and social expectations.

My wife only ever wanted to marry a farmer, instead she got me; but, being old school, she has made the best of it and shaped me so I can come close to her  expectations (I can even shear a sheep with hand shears and  milk a cow by hand.).

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#116    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:33 AM

View Postscowl, on 30 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:



No, Jesus forgives sins. It's in the New Testament. Four sins is better than a hundred sins.
That's not how sin works. Assuming she went into her first marriage with the intention of making it a lifelong union (a big assumption, considering you've said she got married to have sex) then when she got divorced she became an adulteress, at the same time her ex-husband became an adulterer. By her fourth marriage she'smade three other people into adulterers and must expect that her vow for lifelong union is a lie, and therefore God has not sanctioned the marriage. So not only has she caused others to sin, she's also sinning by having sex out of marriage (biblical marriage isn't about a piece of paper). She's also trying to use God's rules to squirrel away what she wants, which is extremely hypocritical, as if she's using a loophole in God's law (remind you of the Pharisees?). If anything, she's sinning more by getting a marriage certificate because she's lying and causing others to sin.


Quote

People have been saying that about every generation since the 1900's, maybe even before that. I think it's some kind of flaw in human perception. We can't help but think the next generation must be inferior to ours.
I never said anything about any generation being inferior to another. Every society has problems, because no society is perfect. We fix some of the problems, and new problems arise. Pointing out the problems in our current society doesn't mean the previous generation was better.


Quote

I personally don't think it's this "me generation" stuff since that has always existed.
Not to the extent that our current society has. An unemployed adult playing computer games all day until that lifestyle is threatened and do he empties his wife's bank accounts and runs off. That's becoming par for the course these days. The extreme side of the me-generation. I am neither the first nor the last to point this out

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3930620

Fact is that society has become increasingly self-centred over the last decades.


Quote

If anything is happening, I think people are getting better and better at manipulating other people by playing "roles" and as a result, people's expectations are unrealistically high. People are less likely to start a relationship based on honesty since admitting your flaws reduces your apparent worth.  Men and women have learned to "sell themselves" like products, glossing over their flaws, exaggerating if not falsifying their appealing qualities and predicting rosy futures together.

President Harry Truman proposed to his wife asking if she'd be happy with a husband who would probably be a farmer for the rest of his life. Do you think that would work today?

We used to have books on how to pick up women in bars. I think those techniques have expanded into how to get someone to marry you. All these people I mentioned shouldn't have gotten married because they quickly became "different" after they got married. The people I know in these divorces all say that their spouse "changed". I'm cynical. I think they were frauds from the very first date.
And if they were "other-person focused" the fact they changed should not have mattered. Though naturally a relationship is a two-way street, so both should have been other-person focused.  The coworker whose wife developed a spending addiction seems workable if both worked at it. Give the husband sole control of household finances, budget for a psychologist to regularly visit. It's not easy and may take a lifetime to fix, but divorce isn't the only option. But because of the me-generation syndrome, they aren't getting anything out of it, so they divorce.  


Quote

Maybe that's because I didn't mention the con-artist who was a complete fraud. He claimed to have degrees in physics even though he was working in a book store. I was suspicious of him the moment I met him. He barely understood Newton's Laws but shrugged off my Physics 101 questions as insulting. Of course my friend who was going out with him thought he was a genius. Why wasn't this guy using his brilliance to make a living? "Politics, man! ****ing politics!" Yep, the whole scientific industry was keeping him down! We begged our friend not to marry this shyster but she was smitten by him. He was very charming.

She got suspicious when the newly married couple would visit people's houses and their friends claimed valuables were missing afterwards. We finally convinced her to make some phone calls and she found he didn't have the degrees he claimed. A background check showed that they only time he used Newton's Laws was on car ignitions and people's back doors. Once the jig was up, he ran off with another woman and the marriage was annulled.
Unfortunately there will always be conmen and those who tread on or swindle anyone they can to get ahead. That's not unique to the me-generation.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 31 October 2013 - 01:43 AM.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#117    Paranoid Android

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 October 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:



Isn't that largely why you go to church and live your religious beliefs, because it feels good?  What makes your particular 'me' focus better than the 'Just Do It' generation's?
I go to church to worship God, learn about him, encourage my brothers and sisters and in turn be encouraged by them. My focus is on God, and on my Christian family. It's not always happy happy joy joy, sometimes it's sombre and far from happy. But at all times my focus is to serve others.

Sometimes when I visit a new church I'll give them a little "test". Normally I'm friendly enough to just join a conversion and introduce myself, but at a new church after the service I've just moved to the side of the room and stood there, not knowing anyone. Some churches, the people divide up into various groups and just talk amongst themselves, ignoring the newbie standing alone. Other churches I've had half a dozen people come and strike up a conversation. I don't think it's a coincidence that the churches where people approached me had a strong focus through their Mission Statements and regular sermons to serve others and not just be in it for yourself.


Quote

What generation has not been a 'me-generation', what era, and what was different?
Different eras had different focuses. For example, a coworker of mine I once worked with was Indian. The first time she met her husband was the day they got married. Her parents had arranged the marriage, and they'd been together happily for 15 years. Did she get extremely lucky to be partnered with her soulmate? Or did they just work hard together? Meanwhile, in Hollywood we have celebrities marry and divorce 72 hours later.

The link I provided to Scowl (above) shows some of the issues confronting the modern me-generation.

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My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#118    Sherapy

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:05 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 31 October 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

Isn't that largely why you go to church and live your religious beliefs, because it feels good?  What makes your particular 'me' focus better than the 'Just Do It' generation's?



What generation has not been a 'me-generation', what era, and what was different?

I think you have a point; I was actually thinking this too, Until I had kids it was a very all about me time until I matured, it was a process of growing into my independence. In fact, it was encouraged, I was told things like figure out who you are first, be you, take the time to experience life unencumbered. Heck, I tell my kids the same thing. It is an important time in a life to experience independence. Its called maturing. It is normal, it passes. It doesn't mean that the 'me' er's do not do humanitarian things, contribute to their community,or go to church, or care about anyone. Personally, I think it is when we have children that we come out of the me stage and become truly altruistic/unselfish.




#119    Frank Merton

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:59 AM

I think we would do well to get rid of the idea of "sin," or at least only use it with ticks around it.  It is the idea of going against God.  Sheesh how could there possibly be forgiveness for that?

The fact is we sometimes out of our less-than-better selves do things that harm others.  These are in my mind moral offenses, and create negativity if in no other way than when we do it and don't correct ourselves we make ourselves a little more able to do it again, this time with less hesitance.  In short, we make ourselves a little more evil.  In parts of Asia that is called negative karma.

The problem with "sin" is that all sins are equally evil.  They are all offenses against God.  This eliminates the ability in some people's minds to think about human behavior rationally.  Since moral offenses are sometimes serious, sometimes trivial, and often we much choose one harm (say telling a lie) over another (say hurting someone's feelings).  Only with the ability to scale these offenses can we hope to make rational choices.

The important thing is when we do harm someone we do all we can to correct it or mitigate the harm.  Otherwise we harden ourselves and leave the world a slightly worse place.


#120    Mr Walker

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 06:40 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 31 October 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

I think we would do well to get rid of the idea of "sin," or at least only use it with ticks around it.  It is the idea of going against God.  Sheesh how could there possibly be forgiveness for that?

The fact is we sometimes out of our less-than-better selves do things that harm others.  These are in my mind moral offenses, and create negativity if in no other way than when we do it and don't correct ourselves we make ourselves a little more able to do it again, this time with less hesitance.  In short, we make ourselves a little more evil.  In parts of Asia that is called negative karma.

The problem with "sin" is that all sins are equally evil.  They are all offenses against God.  This eliminates the ability in some people's minds to think about human behavior rationally.  Since moral offenses are sometimes serious, sometimes trivial, and often we much choose one harm (say telling a lie) over another (say hurting someone's feelings).  Only with the ability to scale these offenses can we hope to make rational choices.

The important thing is when we do harm someone we do all we can to correct it or mitigate the harm.  Otherwise we harden ourselves and leave the world a slightly worse place.
I don't see it like this. To me sins have differing effects /harm and so like Karma some sins do more harm and damage and take more to make right. God forgives us our sins against him, but in Christianity one must also get (or at least sincerely ask for as a part of admitting ones hurts against another) the forgiveness of the one sinned against, and make right that which one has done wrong ie restore the balance of karma. Thus one "regrows" one's "soul" and makes it better, more positive, and stronger.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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