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"Christian" is a useless term


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#31    libstaK

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:55 AM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

To be a christian all you have to do is believe christ is the son of god and he died for our sins and rose from the dead. Everything else is about what kind of work you need to do here on earth to get to heaven.  But, christ said all were saved dispite the work.

Wait ... what?  How can everything else be about "the work you need to do here on earth to get to heaven" if "all were saved despite the work" exactly?

The idea that just believing a dogma will get someone into heaven is the root cause of the problems within christianity today - it look nonsensical to others because it just reads to non-believers as "believe the sky is purple and do as you please - just don't let anyone try to convince you it's actually blue no matter what evidence they present or you will go to hell with them".

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#32    DeWitz

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:23 AM

Yikes, Daniel! What a generalization!!! You're contributing, negatively, to the negativity of the "useless" word in the OP! Ah, forget it. . . I'm lost. . .

Sheesh!

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#33    DeWitz

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:27 AM

I'm told that, in real estate, it's "location, location, location." I think, in spirituality, it's not "acceptance" or "condemnation," but rather "tolerance, tolerance, tolerance."

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#34    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:14 AM

Perhaps Daniel means that belief which finds no expression in "works" is not enough. A true believer will live their entire life doing works which are born from a love of Christ and a desire to be like him. Thus a true believer will demonstrate to others many good works even though they have nothing to do with getting into heaven. When god judges a  person's heart and mind he will know how sincere the belief was, but a sincere believer, surely, would live their faith.

Edited by Mr Walker, 19 October 2013 - 03:22 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#35    danielost

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:02 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 19 October 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:



Wait ... what?  How can everything else be about "the work you need to do here on earth to get to heaven" if "all were saved despite the work" exactly?

The idea that just believing a dogma will get someone into heaven is the root cause of the problems within christianity today - it look nonsensical to others because it just reads to non-believers as "believe the sky is purple and do as you please - just don't let anyone try to convince you it's actually blue no matter what evidence they present or you will go to hell with them".


Actually everyone will get into heaven, with a few exceptions.  You do not have to believe or even know of christ.  But, those who believe in christ and those who never heard of him will get higher status than tnose who know of him but don't believe.  The good works you do on earth will also get a higher status belief or non-belief.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#36    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:49 AM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Actually everyone will get into heaven, with a few exceptions.  You do not have to believe or even know of christ.  But, those who believe in christ and those who never heard of him will get higher status than tnose who know of him but don't believe.  The good works you do on earth will also get a higher status belief or non-belief.
You know, I have a problem with this idea of "status" in heaven.  Sounds too much like classes -- rich and poor, commoners and nobility.  I dunno but it all strikes me as kinda against the idea of heaven.


#37    freetoroam

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Actually everyone will get into heaven, with a few exceptions.  You do not have to believe or even know of christ.  But, those who believe in christ and those who never heard of him will get higher status than tnose who know of him but don't believe.  The good works you do on earth will also get a higher status belief or non-belief.
Frank has hit the nail on the head on this one.

So, daniel, what you have badically said is.....everyone is NOT equal.

I have no intentions of going to heaven, and will be damned if something other mother nature, tries to dictate to me where I should stand when i am dead, I do not put up with that now while i am alive.


#38    libstaK

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Actually everyone will get into heaven, with a few exceptions.  You do not have to believe or even know of christ.  But, those who believe in christ and those who never heard of him will get higher status than tnose who know of him but don't believe.  The good works you do on earth will also get a higher status belief or non-belief.
What is most interesting about this is that I actually nearly agree with you - specifically that most folk will get into heaven.  As to those that know of him but don't believe - I have a question mark over that one, we can hear of many things but if we do not believe everything we hear, it will have more to do with the prevalence of falsehoods in the world than that we are willfully ignoring a truth.  More specifically, it would be better for a man to know than to believe something and I think that if the opportunity to know something is not provided it is not then possible to expect a man to believe it.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#39    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

I always tell myself as long as my atheism is genuine -- that is I am honest about it that there is no reason to think God exists and every reason to think he doesn't, then in the unlikely even that I am mistaken, He will forgive me.

Theists try to explain atheism by asserting that atheists don't believe for some perverse reason.  This is not true.  I would love to believe, but can't bring myself to accept something so absurd.


#40    libstaK

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 October 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

You know, I have a problem with this idea of "status" in heaven.  Sounds too much like classes -- rich and poor, commoners and nobility.  I dunno but it all strikes me as kinda against the idea of heaven.

It is more a matter of "birds of a feather" rather than status.  

John 14:2
"My father's house has many rooms, if it were not so, I would have told you."

To my mind it speaks to there being a room that is the correct room for each, not better or worse but definitively "heaven" for each individual.  Some may wish that heaven is a closeness to God himself and that it is the better place, others would more likely be unaware enough of such an opportunity to even think to have the wish, these would be in bliss where they are as it is the place prepared for them.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#41    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

Oh I assure you if there is a God I would very much like to be close to Him.  It would hardly be a matter of wanting to distance myself.


#42    GreenmansGod

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

All ancient christian churchs and the protistants have lost the truth of christ.  The one that comes the closest to having the truth are the masons.  They have the truth but they hide it from the world, ie put their light under a basket.

I take you are not a Mason. I was in a Coven with a Mason. He didn't seem to have any conflicts with being Pagan. My impression of Masons are they are not really of any particular religion.

Check out this site, it is very informative.
http://www.masonicin...m/religion2.htm

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#43    danielost

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:47 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 19 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:


Frank has hit the nail on the head on this one.

So, daniel, what you have badically said is.....everyone is NOT equal.

I have no intentions of going to heaven, and will be damned if something other mother nature, tries to dictate to me where I should stand when i am dead, I do not put up with that now while i am alive.

God will not tell you where to stand.  You will stand where you are comfortable.  That is how close to god you will stand.  I used status because I can't think of a better word.

But as has been stated christ was not a christian he was jewish.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#44    freetoroam

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 06:56 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 October 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

God will not tell you where to stand.  You will stand where you are comfortable.  That is how close to god you will stand.  I used status because I can't think of a better word.

But as has been stated christ was not a christian he was jewish.
huh? Of course he was Jewish, he was born a Jew and christianity was not even on the menu when he was chopping wood, everybody knows that and I would be surprised if someone said anything different, but as with many others, he rebelled against some
of the jewish rules, had a few words, the jewish big men did not like it and them and the romans did what they did to so many others like him, and the rest is history.



PS: you are right about god not telling me where i stand.

Edited by freetoroam, 19 October 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#45    Paranoid Android

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:06 AM

I think the matter is not that the name has become useless or imprecise, but rather that so many people have copied and changed Jesus' message four their own gain and now almost anyone can claim to be Christian, and woe betide the person who says a group are not "true Christians", for that makes the person intolerant.

Put it this way, if I said I was an atheist but believe in God, every atheist is well within their Right to tell me that I'm not really an atheist. But if a Christian says they don't believe in Christ (yes, there are people like this out there), it's intolerant for me to tell then that they're not really Christian then. Or so current reasoning dictates. Am I the only one that sees how messed up that is?

The teachings of Christ are largely unambiguous, with one or two exceptions. But in the end, only God can ultimately decree whether a person truly is a follower of Christ or not.

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